SUMMARY KEYWORDS

etiquette, life, privilege, leadership, space, people, leader, absolutely, book, jacqueline, feel, protocol, called, conversation, scarlet, teach, navigate, listen, talk, give

 

SPEAKERS

Jacqueline M. Baker, Amber Cabral

 

Amber Cabral 00:00

Three. Privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes, where you live, the places you frequent, your network capital, and even how you spend your money. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege. Welcome to another episode of guilty privilege. My name is Amber Cabral, and today I have the privilege of hosting Jacqueline Baker, who is the founder of scarlet communications, one of my dearest friends, and who is going to tell you how to navigate etiquette? And trust me, it’s not the way you think. It’s one of those things that’s going to help you to be able to show up and use your privilege in an impactful way. We’re going to talk about not just etiquette, but also leadership. And here’s a little hint, leadership also includes etiquette. Hope you lean in for the conversation. All right. Jacqueline, thanks for joining me today.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 01:02

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

 

Amber Cabral 01:04

Of course, I’m so excited about our conversation, I feel like we don’t spend enough time together. We actually don’t like I feel like I plan to be at things and then life happens, or like we plan to be at the same thing, and then life happens. So I’m really glad that we have found our way to this couch at the same time. Yes, yes, yes.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 01:21

We have had some moments, though. Yes. I mean, you came to book launch. I came to your birthday party, the book launch. I can’t wait to talk about that. Oh, your birthday party. Are we gonna talk

 

Amber Cabral 01:28

about that? Okay, yes, we have had some really good moments. So glad that you’re able to join me. Um, so let’s jump right in. Yep, okay, you have a book that you wrote, Hey folks, please go buy this. It’s called the unexpected leader, all right, by my good friend Jacqueline. I want you to actually go out and grab this book, because I think what she does really well is talk about some of the things that you are going to encounter as a leader that you may not realize are helping you to be a better leader. So on that note, I would love for you to let me know why it’s so important to be disruptive to the status quo. Like, I think one of the things that you do well is recognizing that, like, leadership doesn’t have to be this cookie cutter. You know, catch all. You do that in other spaces in your life as well. But what? What about leadership specifically rang home for you around in terms of it being a space where you want to be disruptive, absolutely,

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 02:21

when we think of leadership, or most people think of leadership, they go straight to role, position, status and title. Yes, they go to, okay, you got the corner office. You’re the leader. That’s it, right? That’s what they do, yes, and that’s what we probably have done at some point in our lives. At least, I’ll speak for myself. I have historically done that before, and the truth is that some of the best leaders that I know aren’t in the corner office, don’t make the greatest amount of money, sometimes don’t even work a traditional nine to five job. Yeah, they’re the people that are really moving the needle throughout our organizations and in our family. And so I think that that is so incredibly important for you to see yourself as a leader before you wait for someone to come and tap you on the shoulder to give you permission to do so. I talk about that quite a bit in the book. You talk about leadership in four levels, leadership of self, leadership of others, leadership of communities and leadership of movements, yes, but at that core level, quite frankly, I hope someone comes along and advocates for you in terms of you, you know, saying you’re a leader or you have the potential to be, but Oh, so much more powerful when I say I give myself permission to be a leader. Also, I can’t let this moment slip by, Amber, and I know you don’t love this, but we’re gonna roll here anyway. One of the reasons why the unexpected leader, discovering the leader within you, was birth, because someone extended their privilege to me, and it was Amber. It was me. Amber made a call and said, hey, you need to meet my friend. You need to meet this woman who was already an author and is ready to explore going into her second book. And so you took your place of privilege and really offered that up to me. And so I have to say thank you. And from the world, I’ve said it before, but I must say it again. Thank you. So this book partly exists. Yeah, I wrote it, but the introduction happened from you, for you. And so thank you for extending your privilege

 

Amber Cabral 04:00

I’m always eager to extend my privilege, always. I think it is the thing we should do with privilege, honestly, which is kind of, you know, a personal mission for me is to get people, which is the purpose of this podcast, to get folks to understand, like, Privilege is something that you can do something with. So absolutely, I love that. Um, so let’s, let’s kind of get into some of the like, the obvious things that people don’t always want to talk about. So you are a black woman who wrote a book about leadership. Now, let’s be very honest, there’s not a lot of you in the leadership book section. So why do you think it’s important that we do have black women that write leadership books like why do you why is the representation of your identity in this space so critical. It’s

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 04:41

important because it gives people the opportunity to see what’s possible. You know, I made a mistake, a big mistake, I would say it’s a big mistake. I have my master’s degree in instruction technology from Wayne State University, fellow Detroit,

 

Amber Cabral 04:56

also Wayne Stater, absolutely

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 04:56

right. And I didn’t walk. My master’s degree because I was too busy. Yeah, okay. I was probably like, 2425 too busy. And I think about how much of a mistake that was, because I took the opportunity away from my little brother, my little sister, the people in my family, the people that were quietly watching me to see what was possible. And so I believe that it’s important to see black women in this space of leadership, writing books, securing trademarks, producing podcasts, exploring the world, because you can see what’s possible. Yeah. And so I think that that’s why it’s important. And what’s so interesting to me is how when you say it’s not a lot of black women in this space. I know this, yes, I know

 

Amber Cabral 05:42

this, but it still feels kind of wrong, right? It’s like, is that real? Yeah, whenever

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 05:46

I hear there are a lot of black people do anything, I’m like, but I’m around black people do cool stuff all the time. Yes, but in the greater scheme of things, it’s not nearly as much as you think, not nearly as many as you think.

 

Amber Cabral 05:57

Black is also small too. Like, you know, we’re we’re a small percentage of the the population, particularly in the US, and so we, you know, we’re like, one person removed from knowing all of each other. So there’s also that. But you’re right. It does feel like we do know tons of people. We’re like, What do you mean? There aren’t enough black people doing that, right? So, yeah, for sure. Which

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 06:15

is all, which is also interesting to me, sidebar, but still within the realm of, when you’re in spaces and you are the only one. You’re like, wait a minute, yeah, I know so many others. Wow, did we

 

Amber Cabral 06:24

end up like, in this situation, right?

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 06:28

Yes, but that’s why you must, yeah. It is just essential that people are able to see themselves in certain spaces. And so my place there, your place there, opens that opportunity for other people.

 

Amber Cabral 06:39

Yeah, absolutely. You remind me of I think I say all the time when you speak about leadership of self, and like the importance of seeing yourself as well is, I always tell people you can have whatever you want, right? And I live my life by that, like I’m going to have what I want, and I believe it is accessible to me. And I tell others that all the time, and I post it constantly, because it is ultimately exactly what you said, it is leadership of myself, it is me taking the part of my life that I get a say in and actually executing in that space, instead of kind of handing it over to whimsy or chance or whatever. And to your point, I do think that, like when you think about there being other areas where you have an opportunity to be a leader, leadership of self gives you a lot of power in those spaces too. It

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 07:20

does. And I think for people who are tactically listening like, ooh, this sounds good. This feels good, but how and what right so many of us, and I had to go on this journey for myself, but so many of us forget all the skills and qualities that we have, and we execute these skills. That’s right, every day, every day, and then you leave these skills at the front door of your workplace. And

 

Amber Cabral 07:45

in fact, when someone asks you what you are good at, you don’t say any of

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 07:50

them, right? Yeah, right. But all along, you’re delegating it, that’s right. You’re having a difficult conversation with friends. You’re the ultimate planner. And your girls, you’ve planned the boys trip every year, so you are organized, right, exactly. But then you leave all those skill sets at the front door of your workplace, and you don’t negotiate your for yourself. You don’t speak up for yourself, yeah, and so I had to honestly go on that journey for myself. And thinking back as a young girl, I never felt smart. My Grades and my academics didn’t reflect, you know, quote, unquote smartness, traditional smartness, right? But truly, what happened is, when someone in my family passed away, I collected up this group of certificates that I didn’t know existed. That was almost a proof point of actually, you’ve been out here doing smart stuff, yes, but for whatever reason, you know, maybe you got a bad grade in math, or whatever you carried around this, this, you’re not smart, and it’s honestly partly because I was a terrible standardized test taker. Oh,

 

Amber Cabral 08:42

my gosh, me too. Listen, I wasn’t gonna get into cast Renaissance or king because I couldn’t take them tests.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 08:48

Jacqueline did not pass the test, but I got in cast. Yeah, I did not. But anyway, just, you know, from a tactical standpoint, just document your skills and qualities if you’re still finding a hard time saying, You know what, I am a leader. What are, what are the receipts, like, what does the math really say? Or what are the facts really say? And they probably say you have a substantial amount of leadership skills, and you can call yourself a leader, absolutely. Yeah.

 

Amber Cabral 09:14

So you know what you made me think about is like, resume writing and like, how you communicate what you’re good at. And I think sometimes what happens is you get so caught up in the pretty words that you’re like, how do I say this thing that you don’t really think about the skill behind it? Yeah, I was having a conversation with some clients, probably in the last couple of weeks, actually, where I was talking about specifically managerial No, no leading through ambiguity. And what I was trying to highlight is that you have to also listen equitably, the same way someone is going to tell their version of a story. You have to have the ear that hears equitably. And by that, I mean, I might come in and give you an example that sounds like, you know, I used to have this really old Honda Accord. I drove the Honda Accord for 14 years, and. Probably at year 10, the gas gage went out. I went to go get it repaired. They didn’t make the part anymore. So I figured out that if I filled my tank up on Wednesday, I could make it to Saturday morning, and so I would always fill up on Saturday mornings and on Wednesday. Well, that’s ambiguity. I don’t know how much gas is in this vehicle, and I am therefore leading through ambiguity, because I’m making sure that I’m not on the side of the road needing help every week, absolutely. But we don’t hear that story the same way. We hear the story of someone coming in and saying, Well, you know, I was leading this big project at this large corporation where I had to get, you know, 14 people trained over a matter of two weeks, but they were all in different locations, and I wasn’t really sure exactly where they were starting at we hear that as leading through ambiguity, but we don’t hear the first one, and so I do think, to your point, like that self assessment, that critical look at what we’re doing, and getting away from the pretty words is really important, because you can miss that you have the skill. And it might not have shown up in the workplace, right? It might have been in your personal life. It might have been in your survival, you know, but it is still a thing that you know how to do. I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode, and if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations, to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called allies and advocates, and this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful ally. It has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there, both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say more about that. Now. Say more about that is more about helping you to speak up, to push back, to challenge, to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult. And in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things. You can go pick up those books anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there. Back to the episode.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 11:54

And I think that, quite frankly, your ability to see yourself as a leader outside the workplace is actually more powerful than seeing yourself, oh yeah, as a leader in the workplace, right? For sure, and it’s not that I don’t think that you should see yourself as a leader at your job, but most people aren’t going to work that same job for the rest of your life. If I see myself as a leader all the time, that’s going to span this job, the next job, the next job as well. Yeah,

 

Amber Cabral 12:16

absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit about your etiquette business. Okay, so tell me first a little bit about Scarlet like, how did how did you get started? How did you know edict was your thing? And then I’ve got a couple fun questions, some of which I’m sure lots of people probably asked you, but I think are worth discussing. Awesome.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 12:33

I was an entrepreneur early in my life. Scarlett’s not my first company, okay? I was a wedding and event producer.

 

Amber Cabral 12:40

I actually know this. I do know this. Yes, that’s right. I do know this. You married a couple people I know right, who are no longer married, but that’s not your fault. That’s good. But listen, I was

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 12:53

a wedding and event producer for eight years, starting my first company. I was 22 I never fell in love with weddings, per se, but I did fall in love with order and protocol. Yes, I’m always curious about, like, why things need to happen in this order, and what’s the benefit to happen in that order. Like, I fell in love with that. And so Opal e event planning, which was the first company really set the foundation for the launch of scarlet. Okay, right? When we decided, my business partner decided, okay, this has been a good run. We’re good friends. Let’s stay good friends. Let’s move on with our lives. I took with me this desire to continue living in the space of etiquette and protocol. I looked around Detroit 11 years ago when we started Scarlet, and I noticed no one was teaching etiquette to teen girls in a way that I thought mattered and a way that I thought mattered, wasn’t tea partying, wasn’t curtsying. It wasn’t like, you know, these very,

 

Amber Cabral 13:46

like, kind of antiquated, you

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 13:48

know, musical I am not anti tea parties. I’m not anti debutants, cotillions, any of the things that guy I facilitate today to day. It’s not a day to day. I was curious about really usable skills. How can I transition from space to space and feel confident? How can I show up in spaces and feel good? How can I negotiate in a way to feel good about myself? And what’s the etiquette and protocol around that? I literally just start teaching, and I was like, I want to do this. So I started the company. Love that. I remember the first organization that I piloted the program with was the Rhonda Walker foundation in the metro Detroit area. Well, what happened is, I don’t know if you know this part of the story, because I’m not sure if we talked about it. Six months into doing the work, the Detroit Lions caught randomly and asked if I would teach etiquette to their rookie players. Oh, wow. And I was like, I guess

 

Amber Cabral 14:39

Sure, right, yeah. Why not? Right?

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 14:41

Which has been a key to my career, by the way, is I am always willing to hear the question, yeah, always willing to consider the conversation before I say, No, no, I don’t teach professional athletes like I was like, let me hear this out. Yes, I had a six year contract with the Detroit Lions teaching rookie players, yeah, they’re. Amazing. And that pivot, or that opportunity, I’ll say, is what opened my eyes to see. Oh, there are more people that are interested in this etiquette space, right? But that’s what planted the seed for Scarlet to be essentially what it is today. But we started solely as an etiquette company. That’s what we began. Yeah, I’m still very much committed to that space for lots of reasons. Yeah, I’m sure we’ll talk about Yes.

 

Amber Cabral 15:19

Touch on it. Actually, I kind of want to zoom in on, you know, because we’re talking about guilty privilege. I want to talk a little bit about etiquette, from the standpoint of, I think a lot of times people end up in spaces where they feel like they don’t know the proper etiquette, and so it’s a really easy way for people to feel very exposed, or maybe like, Ooh, how do I navigate this? I actually was talking to a friend of mine just yesterday who didn’t know how to properly open a bottle of wine, and had a co worker kind of call them out on it, you know, which was embarrassing, right? And so how, how does, how do you kind of overcome that so that people get to the place where they’re interested in leaning in, instead of feeling like it’s a place of criticism. Because, you know how it is, adults are just not really just not really the best at being open to correction. We should be, but we’re not always there. Yeah, let’s

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 16:07

start with the baseline. What is etiquette? What is it? Etiquette is the accepted code of behavior for particular situations. That’s all that it is, right? One of the best ways to ensure that people feel like I fit etiquette is, for me, this makes sense for me, is to break it down to the baseline of how it applies to your life. You like a bit of football, don’t you? I do. Okay, what’s one thing that a man does to another man on the football field? Completely acceptable on the field, but walking down the street, it ain’t all right? Definitely to slap a little behind it is completely happens all the time. Yeah, that is the proper etiquette and political being on the phone. That’s it, right? When you make it relatable and see like there is etiquette and protocol that shows up in all of our lives, like there’s rules and, you know, guidance all over the place, just make people see and help people understand like it is a place for it. For me right now, I know that there, there are some limits and there’s some flexibility that etiquette and protocol must align with to make sure that it continues to be equitable, that it continues to be something where, if the rules don’t change anymore, don’t make sense anymore. Like, let’s switch together, let’s flex. I mean, think about it. There was a time when black women wearing their natural hair in the workplace was out of the question. They frowned upon. Yeah, out of the question. We have switched out of that. Why? Because it doesn’t. It never made sense. Yeah, it never made sense. But we have now gotten to the point where we are willing, absolutely, yes, yeah, absolutely. But a couple things I want people to keep in mind as they’re thinking about etiquette and protocol. First of all, is for you, okay? It’s for everybody. But secondly, just because you know what the etiquette and protocol is of a situation doesn’t mean that you now have permission to shame other people who don’t thank you for that. And I made a big mistake early in my life, I wouldn’t say, in the etiquette career, but early in my life, in my early 20s, my very first business partner, Zeman murogi. I remember when I first met her, our boss walked into my office. Her name was Gretchen Simon. She said, Jacqueline. Meet Zeman. Zeman, meet Jacqueline and Zeman shook my hand like this. Give me a hand. You know that wet rag? Oh, right. Wow. What do you think I did?

 

Amber Cabral 18:10

I have no idea. I think I would have probably been like, oh, clearly you don’t like me. Or taking my hand back, I

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 18:16

did something that we mostly do every day with our minds. We try not to do it, but we do it. Sorry,

 

Amber Cabral 18:21

judgment. I

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 18:22

judged her. Yeah,

 

Amber Cabral 18:23

you made a little judgment. I judged her.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 18:25

I thought to myself, who shakes hands like this? Right? What’s

 

Amber Cabral 18:29

wrong with you? Right? But

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 18:30

I forgot about a lot of things. I didn’t think about culture. I didn’t think about the privilege that I had had in these in this country, of learning the proper way to shake a hand, correct? But that’s what we do. We go out and we learn all this etiquette and protocol, we’re like, I know it,

 

Amber Cabral 18:42

and now you’re looking down at people for not having it, and everyone’s afraid of that’s afraid of

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 18:47

that, even though I encourage the learning and the protocol and the etiquette, give other people permission to walk their journey of learning it, or use your privilege to teach them.

 

Amber Cabral 18:57

Thank you for that. Yeah, thank you for that. So I know, just as a separate matter, you know, I can remember when you and I were first getting to know each other. One of the things I was like, Okay, wait a minute. She teaches etiquette. I am sure that I don’t remember the things that I taught. And I will say, you never at any point have been like, Oh, you are using plastic silverware. I don’t use plastic silverware, though, just so, you know, yeah, I mean, you don’t you you have been very intentional and deliberate about, I mean, first of all, you can throw a party, but also you’re deliberate. You can throw a party, okay, but you’ve been deliberate about curating a space that feels welcoming, even if you aren’t a person that’s moving in. You know, very informed etiquette,

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 19:38

you know, protocol. It’s important. And I will say this, it is very rare that you’ll see me out in social spaces telling people I a part of my career is teaching etiquette for a living. It makes people uncomfortable. Oh, yeah, and I know that yeah, right now, if it comes up or it makes sense for me to bring it up, especially like if we’re dining together, I try hard to not bring it up in the middle of dining that because people I can. Totally just see the shift of everyone’s energy. Is this the right for uncomfortable? Yes, and they put me to work. Jaclyn, what do you think about I’m like, I am

 

Amber Cabral 20:08

here to enjoy I’m here to pretend I don’t teach etiquette right now, because we’re about to take shots, and then what right shot? Because that’s proper etiquette. All right, I don’t I try not to do that, because I know that it makes people uncomfortable. Yeah, hey, there. I hope you’re enjoying the episode, and, in fact, if you are, you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living. I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate allyship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together, you can reach out to me@cabraraco.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call, and we will chat with you soon back to the show. That’s really useful. I think there’s a lesson there for anyone who is particularly skilled in a space to take away, like, you know, that’s a leadership moment for sure, to just remember that, like, just because you know it, it’s not responsible to assume everyone knows it right, right? And the impact of doing so is detrimental to you as well as that person. Yeah. I think that’s really, really, really key. Okay, is there an etiquette divide? Do you think that there is potentially, you know, some separation, you know, by those who you know, kind of to what we were just talking about, those who are in the know or in particular positions you know and have access and you know, have, you know, certain experiences that have given them this particular experience because of their knowing how to navigate with a certain type of etiquette? Absolutely? Yeah,

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 21:53

it’s a bit of a struggle in our business, to be honest with you, because I am very clear that a lot of the people that need our etiquette training the most are also devoid of the budget that’s required to bring me in to conduct the services. Yeah, I continue to stay committed to flying back to whatever community is necessary, honestly, at a fraction of the cost of what our corporate clients pay us, absolutely and so people ask me a lot of time, why do you keep going here? Why you keep going there? Like, why you keep showing up here? And it’s like, well, I have to and quite frankly, this is what our business was built on when we started teaching etiquette to teen girls. And so I believe that we will always have a space in making sure that we provide those services to communities or to individuals who where the budget does not allow it, but yes, there’s an etiquette divide. Yeah, I mean, absolutely, and I would love to see a shift in the resources that are provided to people that need these services the most, or this training the most. Because if you’re going to expect for people to grow into their career, to grow as professionals, we have to provide them with the tools that’s necessary to be successful, right? And so absolutely divide all day long, yeah, yeah. So

 

Amber Cabral 23:07

tell me a little bit more about what Scarlet doing now.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 23:11

Scarlet is a leadership consultancy, which we’ve grown to be, yes, we, as I mentioned before, solely operated in the etiquette space for many, many years now, over time, we’ve grown to be a leadership consultancy. And one of the things that we do is teach etiquette. We do a couple different things. Number one, we do multi month leadership training with a lot of Fortune 501 100 companies. We do leadership coaching, and we also do a number of digital services as well, including webinars. So those are the spaces that we hugely show up in. We also have a sub brand called just start that gives people the resources and tools to truly start the things that they want

 

Amber Cabral 23:48

to do. There is an accompanying podcast, by the way, an accompanying podcast, the same name, just start from ideas

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 23:53

to action, absolutely which a lot of people believe that the sub brand is specifically for entrepreneurs. Oh, really, I’m

 

Amber Cabral 24:03

surprised by that well, because when you think start, oh, okay, people think, yeah, let me go start a business. Yes, okay, think about

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 24:09

all the things in your corporate career. Yeah, right. If you’re all right, I’m gonna stop there. How to be a better public speaker. That’s right. I’m gonna start speaking up for myself. Yeah. Like, use that, yeah, in your life overall, not just if you’re thinking about starting a business off the side of your desk or whatever it is, yeah, but yeah, we also have that sub brand that has really just, it just warms my heart, because truly, the just start platform gives people the permission that they don’t really need to start the stuff that they really want to do. Yeah. It’s

 

Amber Cabral 24:38

like that moment where you’re like, you know, this is the thing I needed to see today, right? I feel like your content is often that it is very much the, you know, that was a nudge I needed, okay? I needed, let me go ahead and get started on this thing saying I want to

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 24:53

do. And I knew it, yeah, I know it. It’s just that, oh, I needed a reminder, yes,

 

Amber Cabral 24:56

absolutely, absolutely, for sure. So I want to. Talk a little bit about your career. So you you’ve worked in a number of spaces. You were in corporate, you mentioned you started a number of businesses. You are now currently leading the organization. You know that you have started earlier, you know, but kind of did while you were in your corporate career. And now have to do that only, yeah, right. And so, you know, I just would love to just kind of talk about what leadership has looked like from an evolutionary standpoint in those spaces like so, I mean, this podcast being about privilege, you’ve had the privilege of working in several little worlds, I’d love, or big worlds, really, because you’ve also set on some boards, yeah. So I would love to just hear from you, you know, a little bit about that evolution and the impact that you’ve been able to make through that and how? What? What are the lessons? What are the leadership lessons that you’ve gotten through that experience? First

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 25:46

lesson, which I mentioned previously, but probably the one of the most important ones, is, take the call, listen to the conversation. Yes, right? Because one of the stops that I made that you vaguely mentioned as it relates to being, you know, in the executive corporate space. My last corporate role, I served as vice president of startup programming, AARP innovation labs. Mistake, stop, quite frankly, yeah, totally a mistake. Well, when we first moved to the DC area from Detroit, I got a message in my LinkedIn box and said, Hey, are you interested in an event management consulting position? And I was like, not really, right? But let me follow this model that’s worked for me for my life, and just have the conversation. Yeah, I played the back seat a long time. I was at AARP for eight years while building the company at the same time. Oh, wow, yeah. Called Living the double life. And throughout that journey of being there, I had three different roles, last one as vice president, right? And every single time it was a transition of, hey, interested in you for this role, let’s just talk about it. Interested in you for this role, let’s just talk about it. And I think that some people see your leadership potential and your opportunities, and you don’t, yeah, and sometimes you’re just like, Oh, that’s okay. Like, I didn’t go to school for that, right? I’m not interested in that, right? And that role, or that stint, honestly changed my life, like I got introduced to startup work in ways that are hugely beneficial, because I do a number of things with startups now. And so number one on my leadership journey understanding how important it is to listen to the conversation before you make the decision. No, this isn’t for me, or this doesn’t make sense. Yeah, so that’s number one. Number two is to make sure that you are following as you lead.

 

Amber Cabral 27:32

Yes, I can see that, okay? And because leadership is a servant, yes,

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 27:36

or a kid, behavior can and should be, right? It can and should be. And should be. And I talk about this in the book. I talk about the importance of just knowing when you need to step aside and follow versus always being in the spotlight. That’s right. And I learned about that in the biggest possible way when I gave myself permission to leave corporate. Yeah. I remember this. Yeah. I remember it. What happened? The series of two things happened. Number one, I got covid, yeah, and I had a loved one that passed away unexpectedly, and those two periods of my life forced me to step out of the spotlight. And I knew in my mind that I was leaving corporate, and I knew that it was time for me to allow my team to step up, make their mistakes, do their do whatever was necessary, even if I was uncomfortable with it, even if I knew that the things that I have been performing, I can do them, not think hard about them. It’s not my time anymore, like I need to step aside so they can build the confidence that’s necessary for them to do the job without me being there, right? Yeah, I think so many times when you get in this, you know, in in forward facing, or I’ll say you, when you’re in the spotlight, you forget that, hey, maybe there’s something else that I want to do, or another path I want to go down. I need to leave space for other people to jump into the spotlight as well. So it’s not necessary for you to always be in the spotlight. I i I knew that, but I think I just got so engulfed in and I was relied on so much that it was harder to step to the side. It was routine. Yeah, exactly what it was, yeah. So yeah, yeah. Two big lessons there, I’ll say too. Another one is, I’m uncomfortable a lot. That’s good.

 

Amber Cabral 29:12

I recommend it

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 29:13

Me too. I’m uncomfortable a lot, a lot more than people believe or think that I am. Because you don’t always see it. You don’t, and I and I mask it well. I’ve been working stages since the fourth grade, right? Like I know how to look confident. Yeah, I know, you know. I know I like the back of my hand, but I am uncomfortable a lot, and I share that. And the reason I share that, and I talk about anxiety that I manage, and I talk about, you know, sometimes self doubt that I manage is because I think that too, is much more beneficial than telling people I have master’s degrees and trademarks and all that. Instead, hey, my human, I’m human, yes, but also to set people up for a successful experience as they navigate their spaces. Because if I tell somebody, like, yeah, you know, you should join this board, you should they get in the space, they’re like, Oh my gosh. Like, I am a little overwhelmed. Yes, okay, you’re the part of it. You’re gonna be overwhelmed those first two meetings, yeah, and then you’re gonna be okay, talking about exactly right. So I think that that’s another important lesson as well. I love those. Those

 

Amber Cabral 30:10

are great lessons to take away. And honestly, I think, when I think about my career transition as well, that my learnings were very similar. Like, you know, always ask the question, be willing to be bold and brave like, you know, definitely, definitely put yourself in the position of being uncomfortable, like nothing comes out of comfort other I mean, you know, the growth comes out of the uncomfortable, right? So absolutely,

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 30:32

and it’s still It feels different the next time, right? Like, every single,

 

Amber Cabral 30:36

yeah, every single exposure makes it easy, absolutely, yeah, for sure, definitely, would say that. Yeah, okay, so this podcast is called guilty privilege. Oh, boy. Okay. And the reason I called it that is because I think that most people think of privilege as either something they don’t have, so they don’t have awareness of their own privilege, or if they do have privilege and they’re aware of it, they feel guilty about it, they feel ashamed, or they try to hide it. And honestly, as we’ve talked about in our conversation, Privilege is something that you can share. It helps you. It’s powerful. It gives you an opportunity to make an impact. So my last question for you is, what is one privilege that you have, that you refuse to feel guilty about?

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 31:13

I have the privilege of not having dependence by choice, which allows a flexible life that lets us serve other people, give to other people, show up with our time in ways that other people can’t. And I suppose I’m not really willing to give it up.

 

Amber Cabral 31:39

It’s not in the cards for me to give it up. Agreed on that privilege, Fred and you and I are lying there. And I mean

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 31:45

dependents all around like, no animals, you know, no children, yeah. I mean, a part of it in full transparency is, you know, kids weren’t on the priority menu list. For them are quite full transparency. They weren’t right. But do we have got children that? Yeah, benefits, yeah, absolutely, I do. I do have a second one though, as well. I’d

 

Amber Cabral 32:04

love to hear it. Okay?

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 32:06

I love to tell you, let’s hear it. You know, we love to host.

 

Amber Cabral 32:09

Y’all love to love to host.

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 32:11

We love to have people over. Love it, and some of my friends give me a hard time, like, you know how you don’t use disposable No, no, no. You come to my house, you’re drinking out

 

Amber Cabral 32:22

of your glasses on a plate. I am the same way. Not trying to have a real plate. You’re going to have an actual fork. We are not eating out of plastic. We’re in my house. What are you doing? Good? I deserve to feel good. Every time I sit down to a meal, I

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 32:36

feel the same. I’m the same. Yeah, so I guess that’s a fun but real second one for sure. Listen, I

 

Amber Cabral 32:41

agree with that one as well. All right. Jacqueline, thank you so much for coming on. This is a good time together. We have to make more like I’m coming to the next party. I don’t know. I mean, listen,

 

Jacqueline M. Baker 32:50

I don’t know. Y’all Listen, listen, I don’t know if she don’t show up for the next dinner party. I don’t know what I’m gonna do, but I’m probably gonna talk joke about it.

 

Amber Cabral 33:01

Well, if you talk junk about it, tag me, and then I will reply and apologetically beg to be invited to the next party. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Have a good one. You too. All right. You