SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, dei, privilege, talk, equity, leaders, feel, merchant, love, keisha, thinking, organization, skin tone, impact, sponsor, industry, work, belonging, color, strategy

SPEAKERS

Amber Cabral, Bahja Johnson

 

Amber Cabral  00:00

Three. Privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes, where you live, the places you frequent, your network capital, and even how you spend your money. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege. Welcome back to a new episode of guilty privilege. My name is Amber Cabral, and today I have the privilege of talking to Baja Johnson. She is the head of equality and belonging at Gap Inc, and we are going to get into it. We talk colorism, we talk privilege, and we talk about some of the things that get in organizations ways when they are trying to show up and make an impact in the world of dei jump in Baja. I am so glad you’re here. I’m so so happy to be here and listen, we kind of coordinated a little bit. Listen, the vibe just happened.

 

Bahja Johnson  00:57

The vibe is always happening with us. Love it. Okay,

 

Amber Cabral  01:00

so I’m so excited to talk to you, because one of the things as I was thinking about this podcast that I thought was really important was to highlight that dei folks are, like, relevant, like, we’re in a point of time right now where, like, just the conversations about dei are so aggressive, and there’s this whole dei is dying thing. And so I thought it was really important on a show called guilty privilege that we highlight the privilege that dei people have and why they’re important. And so that’s also why I was glad to have you come on. Oh no, I’m

 

Bahja Johnson  01:29

so excited, you know, you and I could talk about this all day. So I’m excited to get into it. Listen,

 

Amber Cabral  01:33

now, you did not start your career in Dei.

 

Bahja Johnson  01:36

I did not, yeah. So

 

Amber Cabral  01:37

you started out in Merchandising, and I feel like you did a lot of things in merchandising that were still very much connected to diversity, equity and inclusion. Can you tell me about the role that equity plays in merchandising?

 

Bahja Johnson  01:52

Oh, of course. You know, for those who don’t know what merchandising is, merchandising or buying, in the simplest terms, our job is to be able to make sure that our stores have the best product at the right time for our customer, right right best product right time for the customer? Yeah, at the root of that is a customer. It’s a person. And so the idea of equity is really rooted in people. So of course, my day job before, I think I even realized that my day job was rooted in equity. It was part of really being a winning merchant. And I always say the best merchants should be able to merchandise anything. And you and I grew up around the same time, and you know that when we were younger, when we walked into stores, we didn’t see band aids skin tone, right? We didn’t see Barbie dolls with our skin tones. I didn’t see girls who looked like me on runways, in stores, on in models, I didn’t see any of that, right? All of those choices were choices, yeah, and nine times out of 10, those were merchant choices. That’s right, right? And I didn’t, you know as a kid, you don’t know that. You just think, oh, I don’t look like the norm. And the impact that that had on my self esteem, I now know that those were choices that could have been made differently, right? The merchant had thought about equity exactly in everything they were doing. And so in my role, you know, I started out 11 years ago in this in this industry that I didn’t realize until I got in, it was so homogeneous, yes, that the decisions that we were making as not just merchants, right, but as merchants, as marketers, as designers, as production leaders, as retail leaders, without diverse voices in the room. You’re making decisions that don’t have equity in mind. I mean, my favorite one, I just talked about it when thinking about skin tone with Barbies and band aids, right? But my favorite example is when you’re sitting in a room and you’re deciding the colors for the season. You’re picking the clothes. You don’t just pick the silhouettes, you pick the colors, you pick the colors. And what do you do when you’re thinking about a color for yourself? You immediately match that color to your skin tone. Imagine if in a room full of people, you only have one skin tone represented, you’re going to make decisions that impact anybody who wants to walk into your store exactly, not thinking about equity. And so a lot of the work that I did, really I had to come to terms with the fact that we held the power, we had a responsibility as an industry, to be able to think about all people, and now, when I think about my purpose in life, it is truly to make sure that everybody, no matter who they are or what they look like, feels good in their clothes, because that downstream impact is powerful. It’s powerful for me. Yes, it’s powerful for anybody who wants to walk into a store and feel seen. And so the work that I’ve been able to do at the gap is really rooted in just that. So I was still a merchant when I started the color proud Council, but I just said, Talk to

 

Amber Cabral  04:25

us about color proud, because I was that was my next direction, like, tell us about some of the work you did as a merchant, because you color proud made an impact. Like it was not, it was not just a gap thing. It was a conversation in the industry. So can you tell us what that was? Oh,

 

Bahja Johnson  04:38

absolutely. So first of all, I’d like to give all all shout out to my Lord and Savior, Rihanna, because without Rihanna, okay, I’m part of the beehive, but without Rihanna, now, Rihanna changed the industry for the better, yeah, right, when she came out with Fenty beauty, when she came out with savage by Fenty, she flipped the industry on its head, where industry titans were all of a sudden saying, oh, wait a minute, yeah, a full range of skin tones, a full range of sizes. That’s the norm, which

 

Amber Cabral  05:00

is mind blowing, that that was like in my lifetime, like people have been coming in different colors forever. Again,

 

Bahja Johnson  05:07

I’m like the band aids. I think about the band aids forever, exactly. But then what was that? 2014 2015 2016 I mean, it hasn’t been that long since she launched her products, but she turned the industry on its head because people felt seen. That’s the core of what she did that was really the core of color, proud, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. However many words you want to add to that right letters, you

 

Amber Cabral  05:27

have to add to that acronym, right? We like to add, we like to add a lot of that

 

Bahja Johnson  05:31

work people assume is rooted in just people, just the HR, just hiring and mobility, and that’s the core of it. But if you’re really going to be a diversity, equity and inclusion leader, you need to get into the heart of the business. Into the heart of the business. You need to be a student of the business, that’s right. And you need to be able to understand what you are trying to make more equitable as you go. What’s the end result? Yeah, for mine, it’s always been close, yes. And so thinking about the color proud Council, I said, Okay, we got to not just bring diversity into the HR function. We need to bring diversity to the bottom line of our business, right? So that means these garments, the product, the product as a merchant, that’s what I did. I said, All right, we’re gonna have two a two fold focus with the color proud Council. We are one. Gonna think about product education and pipeline. So how are we training our teams to make product end to end, and then what is that pipeline? So I always say there’s a process in doing this. It’s from first sketch all the way to in store and online until it gets into the customer’s hands. How are we looking at every single stage of the pipeline and ensuring that we are designing with inclusion in mind, period? But then that second part, right is making sure that there’s a talent play here who is in the room when they are thinking about making these clothes, bringing these clothes to life, and are they empowered to be able to bring their voice to the table? That’s twofold, right? People think it’s just, I gotta be in the gotta be in the room. Yes, it’s not just that. It’s not just that I’ve been in the room for years, yes, but only recently did I feel empowered to speak the way I’m speaking to you now. And that is what was rooted in the color proud council. So the fact that we were able to bring together across all of our brand families, merchants, designers, marketers, store leaders, and really the catalyst was, how would you design with inclusion in mind? How would you design differently, right? And you know, when you give people a little bit, all you gotta do is give them a little bit of empowerment, and they run, they just need to know we can. We just need to know we can. Yeah. And I had leaders on my teams who were able to start sketching models in different skin tones, yes. So imagine you walk in a design trend board, and you see brown models, right? You think differently about how you’re going to assort your line. You see trend boards that are typically just, you know, one skin tone or one shape. You’re not thinking about all the potential customers that could walk into your stores. Exactly that was what color proud was meant to do. It was it meant to say, if you’re really thinking about inclusion, you’re thinking about it in the clothes you make and sell.

 

Amber Cabral  07:41

Yeah, and I love that we use the word Proud. Proud. I

 

Bahja Johnson  07:45

love it. You know, who came up with that name? Right? No, Keisha Modica, of course, somebody that we know and love is like career

 

Amber Cabral  07:52

changing. Keisha

 

Bahja Johnson  07:54

is career changing. Yes, she saw something in me in that moment. I was still a merchant when I founded color proud. This was at the end of 2017, early 20 I was exactly still a merchant, just trying to make this little engine that could move. And Keisha one meeting with her, and she came up with the name, and in addition, I wouldn’t have met her without sponsorship, and I know we’re probably going to talk about that a little later. The power of sponsorship, especially when you’re a brown woman in a corporate space, you need sponsors to not only support you, but move out of the way and get other people out of the way. Absolutely between Keisha. Keisha did that. Keisha did that. Mark Breitbart, who’s the president and CEO of Mark, did that. Yes. Michelle nyreup, who was formerly with gap, Inc, she absolutely did that. It’s all these people who saw something in me, color, proud, absolutely, was a vision. It caught on because other people had had it, and they just needed it to be unlocked. And leaders who saw something in me and it really invested in me to lead it. Job game changer,

 

Amber Cabral  08:50

right? So I would in a word, and I’m sure in just, you know, our opening conversation, people who can probably tell I would describe you as strategic. I think that you are very thoughtful about how you coordinate, getting the right voices together, getting the right people in the room, pulling in the right ideas. It’s something I have watched you do since I met you in 2017 so I really feel like I would love for you to just kind of share about the importance of bringing a strategic mindset to diversity, equity and inclusion.

 

Bahja Johnson  09:24

Ooh, I love this question because I think it’s one that people underestimate. Yes, again, I think when people hear diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, they immediately think it’s all about the feels. And believe you me, I’ve cried more in doing this work than I ever have in my life. So it is emotional, because it’s personal, Yeah, but how you actually tap in and make impact is by being strategic. And there’s this phrase that I’m sure you have heard in your lifetime, which is that they itching to catch you slipping. That’s right, when people don’t itching they catch you slip, and chin to catch through slipping. And when you don’t have a strategic mindset and how you’re moving. We you gonna get caught flipping. And you also know that there is something that we have all been raised with, with that you got to work twice as hard to get half as much. Listen, you already you already see this isn’t we do. We knew we were gonna do real talk to culture. We got the culture, yes, but we know these things, right? So when you’re moving something new through an organization and people don’t recognize it, one of the biggest lessons I learned early on is that you have to make them feel that’s right, like you know their business as well, if not better than they do. Because you can’t break a system if you don’t know the system to begin with, right? You got to know the system. Again, I always say you have to be a student of the business, especially in this work, because your job is to make people see themselves. That’s right. In your work, that’s right. And so a lot of my strategy first sits with I go into a room and I listen, that’s right.

 

Amber Cabral  10:49

I listen. I try a lot of power in there. That’s also a Keisha tip, like, Keisha would say that, like, Okay, I’m here. I’m just listening, right? I do think that there’s a lot of strategy in listening, and there’s also a lot of strategy in being thoughtful about how you position information. So to your point, I need to see myself. But not only do I need to see myself, I need to be bought in. Because likely, I need your budget, if I am leading, you know the equality and belonging team, I need you to be bought in enough to say this is worth my spend. And so that takes strategy, because we all know budget dollars in any organization, you know, they’re hard to come by. It’s like, Who do you need here today? Gone to exactly right? Somebody else come up with a great idea. They like, well, we gonna take a little your budget and send it over to that right? And so I do think that, like just watching you over the years, be thoughtful about strategy, be tactical and skillful about how to put people together, how to put ideas in front of them, has really, really made an impact in your career. So I wanted you to tell us why it was important. And I do think it’s underestimated to your point that we think it is often just having a working knowledge of what you know these words mean, right? And in reality, it’s making sure that you can translate that to people so that they can have the buy in. So I love that you shared that. So let me, let me ask you this question. And this is, like, probably my favorite question that I have for you. Okay, what do you think gets in the way? So, I mean, like, as I mentioned, you know, we’ve got this dei is dying energy. We have, you know, lots of commitments that were previously made. You know, once George Floyd happened, people panicked. We had a lot of dollars. Of dollars and movement and noise and behaviors, and now people are pulling that back. There’s a very contentious political climate, which I’d argue has been the case for a very long time at this point. And so it’s like it feels like people are still hesitant. What do you think gets in the way of people taking meaningful action.

 

Bahja Johnson  12:42

Fear. The first thing that comes to mind is fear, and probably not in the way that most people think, right? I’m scared of, yeah, right. I’m scared of something I don’t know, yes, but this is, I think, fear of failure. Oh, yeah, you have a lot of leaders who are able to lead throughout their careers without thinking about diversity, equity and inclusion as a key part of their winning strategy. And now, all of a sudden, someone is telling them that without this key piece, they’re not going to be able to lead effectively now or in the future, right? That is scary, right for people, right? And it takes really humble, really growth mindset based leaders to move through that fear, because without that, there are barriers to their own success, and they’re absolutely barriers for growth for their organization. What

 

Amber Cabral  13:27

do you think is the thing that gets you know, we see a little bit of this acting and speaking inconsistently. People are saying the thing, but they’re not necessarily doing the thing.

 

Bahja Johnson  13:37

Is it church today? I

 

Amber Cabral  13:38

mean, we say we were gonna have real talk, yeah? So, so what? What do you think that’s about? Like, why do you think that that leaders are willing to lean in and say the things, but then the action isn’t showing up? I think

 

Bahja Johnson  13:52

it’s because people are human. Right? Everybody wants to be liked, everybody wants to be trusted. That’s just natural human behavior. I mean, again, when you’re in this elevated seat, people often believe that they need to say the thing first, yeah, and that the doing the thing will come later. That’s right. But here’s the thing with this work again, I think about Gen Z, who has absolutely no time for all of us, no time to get our stuff together. They’re like, I’m not gonna walk into an organization that doesn’t show me, me I’m not gonna walk into anything new where I don’t feel like I belong. And I love that energy, because while you know us, millennials may have like, thought about it, they’re demanding it. That’s right. And so for leaders to just get up there and talk, we’re immediately looking for action on the back end. And again, I think fear of failure doesn’t allow people to do that, and instead, they actually look for the quick fix. I think about this often. Listen. I’ve

 

Amber Cabral  14:46

talked about the quick fix some other guests, for sure, what do you think we need to encourage people to take action? I you know, I have some very strong opinions about this, but I would like to hear your opinions about what you think we need to take action. But before you answer that. Okay, I do want to just kind of go back to something you said about Gen Z. Yeah, I have a young lady that’s on my team, that’s a Gen Z person, and she’s directly said to me, I am not working in any corporation ever. I don’t see myself. I don’t feel like they care. So like I do think that the imperative is going to become increasingly urgent, because we are also seeing the biggest wealth transfer so these young folks don’t have to work the same way we had to work. And so what’s happening is they get to make different decisions that could potentially put us in a talent crisis, because folks don’t want to work in organizations. And so I wanted to make sure I circled back and talked about that, because it’s not just a rumor. I’m actually having the experience in my own organization. She’s flat out told me, like, No, you’re the close you’re the closest I’ll ever get to corporate and that’s because I work with corporations. I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode, and if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations, to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called allies and advocates, and this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful ally. It has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there, both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say more about that now. Say more about that is more about helping you to speak up, to push back, to challenge to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult. And in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things, you can go pick up those books anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there. Back to the episode.

 

Bahja Johnson  16:40

Well, again, I think that, I mean, that takes courage, right? And probably a bit of privilege to be able to say, Yeah, do that. But that’s, that’s the kind of courage that we need. It is action. It’s taking

 

Amber Cabral  16:50

action. It’s the it leads me back to my question, which is, what do you think we need to do to encourage leaders to take action? This is going

 

Bahja Johnson  16:58

to sound a little spicy, but I’m gonna go ahead and say it. Let’s hear it. I think in order to make make the current group of leaders, right, the current VPS, SVPs, presidents, whatever, right, take action, we need to hit them in their wallets. I agree. You need to hit them in their wallets, right? No, there’s no bigger motivator than money, and I know that probably isn’t what you would typically hear when talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, but in order for people to really shift their behavior, you have to shift something that they care about. I think that’s it, right? And also, a lot of people are now talking about how we not only embed goals around diversity into yearly goals or fiscal year strategies, right? You need to then penalize people when they don’t hit what you’ve

 

Amber Cabral  17:40

patients that do that, do that, yeah, and so it’s not common, because the thing that we run into is, well, how do we measure and you know, what should really be the goal, and there are other economic impacts, but I think ultimately putting it in the pockets is the way we get a lot of things done. It’s honestly how some of the laws in this country change, right? So, I mean, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, regardless of how you might feel about that. At the end of the day, if I want to see something move, I need to think about where the money’s where the money’s

 

Bahja Johnson  18:05

going. Yes, and honestly, Amber, this may sound, again, a bit spicy, but people need to just do it. That’s it. Again. I’ve been working in the industry for over 10 years. I have watched people make game changing, million dollar decisions based on something they see come down the runway. Somebody determined back in 2016 that ruffles were the thing. Oh, yeah, there was no data outside of what people saw on the runway. They just saw a whole lot of ruffles and industry, the industry said, we are going to go ruffle maybe. Some of our brands decided that ruffles were the thing. Some people just make decisions. That’s right, somebody just made a decision that that was going to be the thing. Yep, we have more data than rufflegate, way more data.

 

Amber Cabral  18:44

Yes, way more data than Cerulean

 

Bahja Johnson  18:47

Blue, yes. Come home. Miranda, personally, right? Like we have more data than that. But people don’t just take action. So outside of just hitting them in their wallets, if you want to say you’re a leader in this day and age and go forward, you need to just take action from the seat that you have. There is a burden of leadership that people don’t talk about enough, and the burden is rooted in being in a seat and having the courage to make decisions that drive impact, absolutely so you got to be courageous with them. Dollars. Responsibility,

 

Amber Cabral  19:13

yes, yes. The responsibility, I do think sometimes what happens with leaders is that they get disconnected from the idea that they are serving the community, yes. And so when you look at the community, if you’re not seeing that reflected in your stores, if you’re not seeing that reflected in how you’re hiring, yes, then automatically you should be thinking about, what is this going to do to my dollars? And I don’t think that that’s happening. I don’t know that there’s enough conversation about how all of these parts are connected. And so what I think about the things that we can do that could be impactful, or that can encourage leaders to take action, I think it’s highlighting the the business failures that we know exist. I think it’s being reminded of, you know, some of the brands that we know. Love, and I will not, you know, call out any names at this moment who have struggled with finances and had to make a shift very often, that included, how am I being more equitable? How am I being more inclusive? How am I bringing in more ideas that the community is interested in? And then you suddenly start to see a shift, right? And so I think it’s that, and I don’t think that there’s enough discussion about the case studies. I think there’s too much discussion on an insular perspective, like we’re looking at ourselves. And I also, and, you know, I have this opinion about, you know, the organization that you work for, and we’ve been very honest. So I can say this, yes, but you know, I think a lot of times organizations build and abandon great ideas.

 

Bahja Johnson  20:39

Oh, the build and abandon. Listen, you know, I’ve been stealing that So you’ve talked about build an event. It is true. You

 

Amber Cabral  20:44

have this fantastic thing. It rolls out, it hits, but it hits later than when you’re watching, yes, and then all of a sudden, you’re like, Oh, that’s not working, and now it’s gone. I really also feel like we have to have the expectation that having a mindset of equality and belonging takes time. So are we going to invest the time if it doesn’t show up this quarter? Am I willing to give it the run for the next, you know, 18 months, right? And see what happens? Because folks got to get the word out. People got to get their dollars together. We’re talking about buying products like things take time, and people

 

Bahja Johnson  21:15

have to trust you people, it takes time to build trust. It takes time to build trust in a relationship. It takes time to build trust with a partnership. Yeah, and it definitely all of these things, customer relationships, they have to trust you. That’s right. If you have never shown them a brown skin shoe, exactly, brown skin underground, right? You’ve never shown them things in your skin tone. Do you think immediately they’re gonna be like, I’m now gonna switch all my buying power to exactly? If you’ve never shown them plus size clothing, that’s right, which is actually regular sized clothing, because, you know, my because, you know my, you know my battle cry here, if the average size woman is a size 16, what is plus about 1618,

 

Amber Cabral  21:47

20, currently wearing a size 16 pant, by the way, which, you know, I just wanted to highlight. I did have to order online, and that alone,

 

Bahja Johnson  21:53

right? Like, once you find that brand, yeah, that you trust, yeah, you’re going to shop there often, but you can’t immediately expect in one quarter for that trust to come. We don’t do that with anything, anything. And even in business, we don’t do that with our normal business model. We would never say, You know what? We just launched a white tee. It didn’t perform in the first quarter. So we’re never gonna sell white teas again. Exactly. No. You know what you do when you launch a product. Doesn’t give you expectations up front. You take the time Yep, you study that product. You ask customer questions, right? You dive into the field, and you say, Where am I? What am I? What am I doing with this product? It’s not working. Talk to me about the feedback. You take the time. You do not abandon a white tea, right? Okay, right? You dive in

 

Amber Cabral  22:35

because we know, we know the white tea is going to sell. You know what’s

 

Bahja Johnson  22:38

going to know it’s got to figure out what, you Yes, need to do differently to make that sell. That’s that personal accountability. Yes,

 

Amber Cabral  22:45

exactly. So I really feel like that’s one of the biggest shifts that needs to happen. Is just this, this willingness to commit, this willingness to really evaluate the data, the willingness to look at the industry, not just at yourself. I feel like a lot of that would help to make you know, some of the behaviors that we see shift, and you know, it’s, it’s tough. And so, speaking of tough, my next question is, if there were one thing you could wave bajas magic wand across all of the people of the land that you could make sure they understood about equality and belonging, what would that one thing be? My

 

Bahja Johnson  23:19

one thing would be that it is a necessity. Yes, and I know that sounds really simple, but it’s necessary to lead with this. Again, not just because of Gen Z, you know, nipping at our heels, right? But because everything is better with equity in mind. It’s not an add on. It’s not a let me figure out my strategy and then add a little sprinkle, a fairy dust of equity on top. That’s it. It is equity. The best decisions in our lifetime have been made with equity at the for at the forefront, again, I think about a Fenty beauty or savage by Fenty, because her whole business model, right? Her entire thesis statement, if you will, yeah, is around making everyone feel seen. That’s right. And she has kicked everybody’s ass, everybody in our respective industry. She shut down Victoria’s Secrets fashion change

 

Amber Cabral  24:09

everyone’s direction, yeah. And think about that like, it’s like, you know, how long were you looking for nude shoes that fit your nude? Hello, right? How long were you looking for bandages to your point, in your skin tone, how long, in fact, with the bandages? I don’t even know that people knew that bandages were supposed to match your skin in some cases, right?

 

Bahja Johnson  24:28

I didn’t as a kid, I thought they were all tan. They’re all tan. They’re all tans because that’s the color of that’s the BandAid, that’s just Band Aid color, exactly, right?

 

Amber Cabral  24:35

And then you fast forward, and you start to realize, like, oh, no, this was the tone that they thought people were this is what we were doing intentionally. And so I really, really think we undervalue exactly that. But that, again, goes back to, are you looking around? Are you paying attention to what’s happening outside? Because she did come in and rattled everybody’s balls like, yes. Way back, right? Yes. But you know, the other thing

 

Bahja Johnson  25:01

I would add, if I can, is it not that just it’s necessary, it’s necessary and should be everybody’s problem to solve. It is, it’s it is everybody’s problem, everyone’s problem to solve. I think often, I’m sure you’ve talked to a number of dei leaders, whose teams are small, that’s right, whose teams are predominantly people are small, whose budgets are small, right? If you think about the size of most of these teams compared to the organization they’re trying to impact, there is no way that a team with this small enumerator is going to make an impact on denominator this big, right? There is no strategy for that. There’s no strategy for that. The only thing that’s going to make that shift, that seismic shift, is making sure that everyone has shared accountability in the work and even for our organization, even for gap this year, there are two words that we keep in mind for everybody. One is allyship, which come on, allyship, right? You’ve taken a lot of time work hard with the allyship. And literally, that was the basis, I think, of our initial strategy in 2020. Is thinking about allyship. Because the reality is, even with our commitments, even if we hit them in 20 by 2025, our company is still going to have a certain majority. So allyship is going to be what’s keeping the ship afloat. That’s right. But the second word there is shared accountability. Because, again, by just saying, oh my god, we’re going to open the door for the DEI team, for the equality and belonging team. We’re going to make sure that you have a seat at the table. I’m going to take my seat now, right? I’m gonna sit at that. I can’t sit at every table. I can’t sit at every table, and if I’m not at this table because I’m busy sitting at this one, I need you to be able to hold the seat for me. That’s right. I need you to be able to use your privilege and your power and your impact and your title to uphold everything that we’ve taught you. That’s right, so that people can see not only us as a beacon for driving inclusion, but they need to see you exactly. They need to see you as leaders in your seat upholding the words around Yes, belonging. That’s shared accountability. So those are the two things that I would say. One, that is necessary, yep, and two, that it is everybody’s problem.

 

Amber Cabral  26:53

It’s everybody’s problem. Hey, there. I hope you’re enjoying the episode, and in fact, if you are, you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living. I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate allyship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together, you can reach out to me@cabraraco.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call, and we will chat with you soon back to the show. I also would extend that beyond just corporate. Yes, I think that the experience of equity, the experience of belonging, the experience of having access to the size you need, the color you need, all of that that extends beyond the workplace. It’s not just a job thing. It is literally thinking about when you are going to shop for yourself, when you’re going to shop for a friend or a family member, when you are thinking about what is going to make these young people feel good, these cute little babies that we love this, you know, keep creating. Thank goodness for all of them in my life, right? And so it’s like, it’s so odd sometimes to me, how little consideration we give to the depth and breadth of our uniqueness, but we want to sell people stuff, and I’m like, why wouldn’t you want to think about me? Why wouldn’t you want to put the effort in to consider right? I really think that it has to be not just it’s not everyone’s responsibility in this organization. It I mean that it is everyone’s responsibility in this organization. It also is everyone’s responsibility, like across the board, and there is a space where you’re sitting in your life, somewhere that you have the opportunity to shape an experience that someone is having as a result of some aspect of their identity. And so the more we see that, the less that this is seen as like, Oh, do you have a dei department? How big is it? How many people? Oh, how many people are they supporting? Oh, how’d y’all do that? I’d love to benchmark that, because we only have and I think those conversations are too common, because it’s like, well, that’s not the way we address it. That’s not the solve and so yeah, I love your answers. I think I would probably have said the same thing if someone had asked me, like, those are the great obstacles, if we’re being honest, you know. And

 

Bahja Johnson  29:09

I wish people talked about them more. Yeah, I think even when I read reports, right? You read every year a company comes out with somebody does, and it just looks like the biggest pat on the back. But what I want to know is, who put their blood, sweat, tears, effort into that report?

 

Amber Cabral  29:25

I want to know the mistakes. I want to know where you struggled. I want to know what you did about those struggles. Because I think right now, we are, to your point, really focused on highlighting and patting on the back, so we’ll strategically word things, but when you get to the numbers, they’re the same. You know, there’s a lot of that that happens across lots of organizations that I support, you know, some some that I support. So it’s, you know, it’s a it’s a lot of wanting to be seen doing the work Yes, and not doing it for real, not being accountable, like you just

 

Bahja Johnson  29:54

said, Yes. I almost wish we could do like report behind the scenes videos again, to see who’s all part. That process. Because typically, you go to the people when you’re building report. We’ve done reports for years now, right? But you go to the people in the organization who can help, not just speak to the work that they saw you do, yep, but the work that they’ve done alongside you, yes. And so I wish we could see that, because that’s the real Absolutely, and that’s and that’s what people stay at organizations

 

Amber Cabral  30:16

for. And like, look at your challenges. You got to look at the stuff you struggled with, because that’ll tell you where you can make some of your, oftentimes some of your easiest opportunities rest in the things that you didn’t do great. And so it’s worth taking a look at that stuff. But you know, we like to get to the best. Next thing you know, again, people

 

Bahja Johnson  30:32

have fear to fear, or have a fear. Excuse me. Again, people are afraid of failing. They have a fear of failure. So they don’t even try.

 

Amber Cabral  30:40

That’s it. I’m guilty. I have had a fear Me too. I like to be cute and perfect. That’s right. I like to be cute and perfect. I could not have said that better. That’s it. Exactly yes,

 

Bahja Johnson  30:50

right? Like, we’re human saying it’s bad to operate, like, right? I just don’t think you and I in our spaces and places have the privilege, correct, to be cute and perfect. Do this work. We don’t know. I gotta be good to get nasty. People have said, people have seen me cry when they think I had tear ducts, right? Like it wasn’t cute, but that was more impactful than me sitting here smiling and making it look good for you or easy for you to do this in my skin. No, you need to see me get a little nasty before you actually saw the work and what it took

 

Amber Cabral  31:17

exactly. So I’m glad you mentioned your skin, because we’re going to talk a little bit about that. Ooh, I love chocolate. That’s right, I want to say I saw you post recently that you were recognized as being one of 2020, three’s most influential leaders by WWD, yes, ma’am. And I think that is phenomenal. Thank you. And I want to give you your flowers, and I want to be very specific, because you are a dark skinned, black woman, okay, award winning. You have been a merchant. You have made influential changes in a large, well recognized organization. Thank you. All right, you are respected and loved by many, including me. All right, listen. I want you to hear from my mouth to your ears that you are phenomenal, you are outstanding, and you’ve done some amazing things in your career, and we have a lot more time from you.

 

Bahja Johnson  32:06

You’re gonna make me cry filming this. Okay,

 

Amber Cabral  32:09

it’s okay. We had a crier already. You’ll be the second. It’s okay. So I want to make sure that you understand the value, but I also want to hear from you. Why do you think it’s important that you with all the characteristics I listed and more, why is it important that we see you in that place? Why do we need to see you as an inspirational leader? Oh, you’re not gonna feel guilty about this privilege. Come

 

Bahja Johnson  32:34

on, listen. I was gonna say, Amber, this is, this is a podcast called guilty privilege. And so I need to be very honest that I am so privileged in so many ways. Yeah, right. Like I, I don’t think people look at me on the street and they recognize all the privileges that I have, and I have no problem rattling them off here, because I think people need to know all of what it took to get me here with those lists of accolades. Yes, right. I mean, let’s, be let’s think about it. I’m a tall, dark skinned woman with a name that most people can’t pronounce, Baja. It’s not Baja. It’s not hard. It’s unpracticed. Practice it, right? You look at me, you hear me. You see my name on a piece of paper. You don’t think that that’s somebody who has privilege. But let me tell you, I have a whole lot of them. I have two incredible parents, two incredible parents who have an education, who were raised to have an education, who worked in corporate spaces. So by the time that I entered my corporate space, I had two incredible teachers to not only give me the insight into what I was going to face, but to teach me to lift my head up high, shoulders back and down, and hit him with a smile. That’s right, because I had every right to be there. They raised me to go to the best schools. I lived in the best neighborhoods. I was one of the few people who looked like me in said school and neighborhoods. But that was intentional. My dad used to always say to me, Listen, I want you to be so incredibly proud of being a black woman, being a dark skinned black woman, but it is a white world that’s right. And I need you to be able to be tenacious and fearless and know that you deserve to be in that white world. Imagine being told that as a kid, and you’re like, But dad, right? Everyone just loves me. I imagine he’s like, they love you now in this little bubble, that’s right, they will not love you

 

34:11

when you enter the world, when the cute for the cute, they

 

Bahja Johnson  34:15

will underestimate you when you walk into that world. You know, I once got pulled over by a cop, and he asked me to pull into my private High School’s parking lot, pull it, pull into this space right here. I had the sticker to my high school in the car window, wow. And I he thought I was following him too closely. It was a bullshit ticket. Wow. I know now it was a bullshit ticket, but at the time, I don’t even think I realized, like, I’m like, I’m just driving this cute little BMW, and I’m pulling in and I’m rolling through this, you know, this, this county, and immediately my privilege didn’t matter, because what I look like took precedent. Yes, that’s why talking about privilege, I think, is so important. Honestly. Amber, I can’t tell you how many people when I walk into a room and start speaking, whether it was. Was in college for the first time, I hopped out of my bubble, whether it was when I started my career who looked at me and said, Oh, my God, you are just so articulate. Yes, what they meant to say was, I didn’t expect this little brown hair girl to come in here talking like this, right? But that was by design. I have two incredible little sisters. One is a doctor, one works for the World Health Organization. And people ask our parents all the time, what did you do? What How Did you are you so proud of your girls? And again, both parents sit here and say, Oh, this was bad. We planned this. We planned this. There is no reason why we were given all of this privilege and all of this access and all of this goodness if we weren’t going to do something with it. That’s the difference between, I think, privilege, guilty privilege, and walking in your privilege. Yes, I walk in my privilege because I realized that I was fortunate, and if I didn’t do something with all of this privilege, it would be a slap in the face to every single person before me who didn’t have as much. I love that, and I walk in it now, because I want people to see what it could look like. That’s where you invest when you have privilege. But I also remind people that I am the exception. I am not the rule. You are not the rule. So do not expect every single black person who walks into our organization to look like me, act like me, maneuver like me, because, honey, this is practice. That’s right. This is so practice, and it’s for survival. It’s for survival. Some of it is God given. I love me. I love people, that’s right. And so a lot of what I think I’ve been able to do in the world is also rude, in the fact that I am deeply empathetic, yes, and I love learning from people, right? That is that that’s the God given part that I would never, that I would never deny. But being able to have privilege to drive with that God given part, to be able to speak to people, hear from people, have them trust and believe in me, that is privilege, and I will never feel guilty about it, because I’ve done something with it. Listen.

 

Amber Cabral  36:50

So my last question was gonna be, what is one privilege you refuse to feel guilty about, but you’ve already done it. I refuse to

 

Bahja Johnson  37:01

feel guilty about all of them, because they are a gift. Listen, and I did something with it again. There are a whole lot of people out here who don’t utilize their privileges for good, and they don’t recognize the power that they have. Yeah? I recognize it every single day, yeah. And you use it, and I use you, and I make choices, and I talk about it, yes, and I make sure that it’s not only people who have privileges, like me that get to have a seat at the table, that’s

 

Amber Cabral  37:24

right. So since you kind of stole my last question, I’m sorry I got another question I’m gonna ask you. Okay, okay, and what I want to zoom in here on is what you said earlier about sponsorship. Like we know what mentorship is. It’s getting guidance from someone, but you have had the fortunate advantage and privilege of being sponsored by some of like, I mean, some amazing and impacting leaders, right, some game changer well recognized names and behind the scenes names, right? You’ve had the benefit of that. Can you talk to us a little bit about sponsorship, why it’s been important for your career, and what people could do to try to attract sponsors, because I do know people are sometimes unsure how to get one, and we do our best to try to tell people they need to sponsor, but there’s a little bit that you have to do to be attractive to a sponsor, too. Yes.

 

Bahja Johnson  38:12

Well, you don’t have to start out with one of my favorite sponsors. Again, we’ve talked about her, Nisha, Monica, a dei industry leader who has had such a great impact on both of our careers. She first said to me that she believes that black talent is over mentored and under sponsored. I agree, and I never thought about it that way. I always talked about the people who were able to pour into me as mentors. I always utilized the word mentor, but when she put that into my head, I was like, talk, you know, tell me more about that. Another one of her favorite phrases, tell me more about that, right? And when she explained to me that mentors teach you how to survive in the environment that you are in there a certain way a mole that you guys have to fit into, it’s guidance based on their their way of being, or what they’ve known to be true, or how they found success, their experiences. Sponsors recognize the light in you, that’s right, and they utilize everything in their power to be able to unlock that for you and create space for you. And so whether it’s Keisha Monaco, who was a sponsor again, Mark Breitbart, who’s been a sponsor, Michelle nyrep, even some names that you all know in the industry, I think about Brandis, Daniel Brandis fashion row, who saw a light in me when I just was looking up at her, like, you know, a young spring chicken, like, right we How did she do this? Right now? Years ago, she saw me, continues to pour into me. They sponsor me. And I think when people are looking to find a sponsor, you have to look for someone who gives you that good feeling. And I know it sounds a little hokey pokey, right, but all of those people, I had the courage to go to them, and they gave me a feeling. You have to bloom where you’re planted. That’s right. We’ve all heard that phrase as well. You bloom where you were planted, right? And I had to recognize that their soil was really good. So that’s right. And I think most people have that gut instinct, or this person’s gonna be here for me, or this person’s gonna challenge me, it might even, not even be a good feeling, like they love everything I’m saying. Some of those first leaders I met were like asking me questions and challenge. Me, I couldn’t get a good we always laugh with Keisha, yes, I didn’t know she liked me or not.

 

Amber Cabral  40:05

The poker face of the ages. You’re like, okay, am I going in the right direction or not? Yes, yes.

 

Bahja Johnson  40:12

But she there was something about her where I was like, she’s listening to me and she’s asking questions because she was bought in That’s right, right? Those are the people that are going to invest in you and push

 

Amber Cabral  40:22

you. And when she speaks, you Listen Yes, because she doesn’t say too much. She

 

Bahja Johnson  40:25

doesn’t talk too loudly. No, right, doesn’t right. And so for people looking again, for those sponsors, don’t just say, is somebody going to come in here and tell me that I’m great? That’s right. You need something to look for people who are going to believe in you, and some people show that differently, but you’ll know. And then, once you have the sponsorship, you need to be able to feel comfortable asking for what you need in it. Yes, all of those leaders I have gone to with very direct, very clear requests, right? Whether it was for feedback, whether it was to help, again, sponsor by pushing some stuff out the way you get this out the way. For me, this out the way utilizing your power, right? That’s again, where the God given nature comes in communication, being able to ask for what I did right, and being able to do so clearly in a way that people could hear and see and feel a part of you need to be able to do that, because sponsors are only going to sponsor you when they know what you

 

Amber Cabral  41:13

need. Yeah, by the way, that’s also strategy. I just want you to know that well, thank

 

Bahja Johnson  41:16

you. Thank you, yes, for just lean into all the things, lean into all

 

Amber Cabral  41:19

the things you deserve to do that. I want to thank you for coming on to the show today. This has been so great. I mean, we could talk for like another 41 but I also have to, you know, be respectful of the people’s time.

 

Bahja Johnson  41:30

Well, Amber, now you know that this is, this is your podcast. It is, and you’re supposed to be asking all the questions and saying all the things, yes, but I want to make sure I give you Igor flowers. Oh my I’m gonna do it. I’m going to do it because you have had the courage and the strength and the fortitude to build something that before people knew they needed it. And I didn’t cry talk about myself, and I’m gonna cry talking about you. You had the courage to see in people before they realized they needed to be seen, and you were using your platform every step of the way to make sure that people are seeing now and in the future, even when it’s really hard. So even you asking me to be on this podcast is a reminder that we all have something. Every guest on the show has something worth talking about and worth bringing to the forefront, and that’s your gift. So gosh, I He’s so sweet. Queen, queen. Okay, get a queen. Queen. And I knew I was gonna cry at some point today, but I think it’s well deserved. It’s worth a cry talking about you. So thank you. I appreciate the time and the space and the platform to talk my shit. You listen

 

Amber Cabral  42:41

anytime, come on back anytime. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You.