SUMMARY KEYWORDS

privilege, storytelling, people, stories, restroom, atlanta, space, folks, talking, part, allies, conversations, called, identity, share, walk, lgbtq community, love, city, bravery

SPEAKERS

Amber Cabral, Lisa Cunningham

Amber Cabral 00:00

Three. Privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes, where you live, the places you frequent, your network capital, and even how you spend your money. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege. Welcome back to a new episode of guilty privilege. My name is Amber brawl, and today I’ve had the privilege of talking to Lisa Cunningham, who is a director in digital media and public health, and my dear friend, she’s a phenomenal storyteller. You are going to get some nuggets today, y’all, we’re going to have a little bit of conversation about the experience of being responsible for telling people’s story, and the equity in storytelling and why everyone should have access to it. I am so happy you’re here.

Lisa Cunningham 00:51

I am so happy to be here. You know, it’s so interesting, because when I grew up taking you back to the 90s in Atlanta, right, in music video land, right, we were telling stories. We were liberating, in a sense, like liberating. I remember when we were on TLC sets and they were wearing their hat to the back and the pants down, really, right? Okay, that’s right, but that was an anthem that created a culture, right? So that storytelling through that art form was something that I grew up with, and then it exploded from there. So over the years, when I started pivoting, when I started, as I like to call it, the remix, right? When I remixed it, I said, Now I want to take that portion of storytelling, but I want to do it for even a greater good, yeah, because there were times when I felt like I was a part of that culture of storytelling, yeah, right, that might not have been making such a good impact, right? Yeah. I mean, and so when you can do it and you can captivate people, but you’re literally not only bringing awareness, but you are changing patterns of behaviors for generations to come. That was the game changer. So for me, storytelling is my lifeline. I can’t even think of what I would do if I wasn’t helping to tell my story other stories. I don’t know what I would do,

Amber Cabral 00:52

Listen, I think you might have been the first person to book. Of course I was. I was so excited when I got to know that you were booked. Because when I think of storytelling, you are one of the first people that come to mind for me, because you’ve had such a career, and you’ve had an opportunity to tell all types of stories in all types of ways, and you get all of this set stuff that the people who are taught, like listening to us talk, don’t see. And so I was really excited to have you on because I know you really get the intricacies of, like, what storytelling really means, right? And so my first question I really wanted to ask you is just, you know, having the privilege and also the trust that people grant you to tell people’s stories and all of the ways that you’ve done that, how has that shaped your life? yeah, so a little bit. Let’s share a little detail for the folks. So you and I met on a set and had a really brief encounter, and then a few years later, you reached out to me to have a conversation, and we turned into a friendship from there. But specifically, you reached out because of something that I do. Can you share a little bit about what made you reach out to me and how that has informed some things that you were leaning into?

Lisa Cunningham 03:25

What it was is that I met you and then I ended up finding you on a podcast and saw that you were masterful in the DEI space. I mean, it’s just a fact. Thank you. And it was a space that it was like the final frontier for me, right? I was like, It’s over there. I want to do this. This is what I want to do. But I said, there’s only experts do that. No, you got to be an expert. You were the first person after I reached out to you. You literally did. I’ll say The Wiz. I won’t say Wizard of Oz. Okay, you did The Wiz on me. I love right? You said, Lisa, you’ve already got it inside you. You already got it inside you. And I was like, but no, I don’t, I don’t know all

Amber Cabral 04:12

this. And this is so strange. I’m like, Are you kidding me? Yeah, it blows my mind. Yeah, because the thing so I always remind people to when you’re talking about Dei, when you’re talking about equity, which is really the core of what we’re all asking for. The thing is, I need you to be in your space. Yes, because it needs to happen there. Yes, and I can’t. I don’t get invited to all the spaces, whether that’s a cultural matter, whether it’s a you know, identity element, whether it’s my age or any of those things. I don’t get invited to all the spaces, but there are spaces that you have been to have access to and have an opportunity to shape and influence. And so I’m like, What do you mean? You’ve already got it, right? So why were you interested so much in being impactful in let’s just call it the DEI space?

Lisa Cunningham 04:58

Yeah. Well. Well, what I was seeing is that my unique history, right, being rooted in the entertainment industry. I said to myself, wait a minute. I’ve got a level of credibility, right? You know how old I am? Not everybody knows how old I am. I will tell the audience I am 53, years old. Okay, let’s just get that out of the way right now.

Amber Cabral 05:23

Love that that Black doesn’t crack.

Lisa Cunningham 05:25

Thank you. What I did is I said to myself, I want to be able to take this kind of swag that a lot of the people that are in that space don’t have. That’s not to discredit anybody, because everybody you just said it. We gotta have people in all these different rooms, right? And we’ve gotta Captivate and appeal to people in all different ways. And so I knew that there was an audience that I could appeal to. That’s true. And so that’s why I was just like, No, I gotta get in this space. I mean, I remember winning contests for speaking when I was eight years

Amber Cabral 06:04

old, you have a voice. Now you have quite a

Lisa Cunningham 06:07

voice. Well, I’m talking to a person who has a voice.

Amber Cabral 06:09

So we voice people are gonna this is ASMR, this podcast. Here

Lisa Cunningham 06:14

we go. So anyway, Amber, this is guilty pleasure. Great. Talking to you. I knew I could captivate people, but now I just wanted to take that to another level. And there’s certain things that happen in your life that I didn’t realize why I was. I just kept leaning into this space. And so I’ll share this, and I don’t know if I’ve ever said this on camera, is that my sister, God, rest her soul passed away in the earlier 2000s and I saw the system of healthcare for the very first time. I witnessed all of the gaps, right? And then, as I got older, I was a caretaker for my mom, as a lot of people know, yes, and I started to see more and more gaps, and I also started to see what privilege my family had right and what that meant for the fact that we just lost my mom at 93 she would have never lived that long. Had we not had that privilege, right? Right? And so that comes to medications. How you took the medication with where you’re being proactive, did you? Did you prevent yourself from even having to get on the medication to begin with? Exactly, right? So all of these narratives, I ended up wanting to spread the gospel of you know, let’s be preventive, right? Folks, right? Or all folks, right, right, let’s be preventive with our health. I didn’t realize that was the driving force by me wanting to get into this space. Had no idea until it like came to me like an aha moment, like,

Amber Cabral 07:57

I want us to be well, yes, I

Lisa Cunningham 07:58

want us to be well.

Amber Cabral 08:00

Yes, absolutely, so. So tell me this how, and you’ve alluded to it in that story. But how? How is storytelling important to identity, identity

Lisa Cunningham 08:09

and storytelling? You know, it’s very interesting, because I learned so much from listening to people who are supposedly, you know, they act like the LGBTQ community is this?

Amber Cabral 08:26

Everybody’s the same, all y’all have the same objectives and goals and faces and features. Yes, that’s true. It’s very true. And

Lisa Cunningham 08:34

when I tell you how my trans sisters have educated me with their storytelling over the past couple of years, I had a we were so excited. We were doing something with the mayor’s office, and we had brought together some of our trans stakeholders to have a round table. And I’m so happy, and I’m gonna moderate this wonderful discussion. And it was at City Hall, and we got everybody together, and one woman said to us, you know, there would have been some women that would have been here today, but they couldn’t come because they travel with weapons on them for protection. And they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t be able to get through the city hall, security, yeah, when I tell you, it gives me chills just knowing that I wouldn’t have learned that without storytelling, right? Had they not shared that with me, and it impacted me, right? You know? And so that’s why identity and storytelling, it’s a marriage, and we have to allow people to be able to have access to telling stories. I have this phrase, it’s not mine, but I constantly say I don’t want to just be preaching to the choir, right? I’m hoping that your audience right now is people, some people who don’t think like I think exactly. Because I want you to hear me, right? Yeah, and I want to hear. You chose

Amber Cabral 10:00

Exactly? Yeah, I think also, like, just thinking about what you were saying about healthcare and equitable access to healthcare, like, we need that story, yes, like, I know, you know, I recently lost my father, and so just not having access to the information, and then having conversations with doctors after, you know, like there’s so much that we don’t know around our health, around the healthcare industry, and I’m a person who worked in health insurance, and so I knew what questions to ask, I knew how to probe, but the stories that we hear, the information we get from those experiences, the identities of the folks who are carrying cancer or who are carrying just being older, yes, right? Or being a woman in this particular community, or whatever it might be, right? Those are all identity aspects that need a story, yes, so that folks have an opportunity to glean from that information and then go forward and say, Okay, well, here’s how I can maybe be different. I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode, and if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called allies and advocates, and this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful ally. It has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there, both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say more about that now. Say more about that is more about helping you to speak up, to push back, to challenge, to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult. And in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things. You can go pick up those books anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there. Back to the episode.

Lisa Cunningham 11:49

Well, also we have to learn that sometimes our identities are rooted in some old ass stories.

Amber Cabral 11:56

It’s very true. It’s very true. That’s funny. Some black

Lisa Cunningham 12:00

folks in their relationship with things like clinical trials. Oh, yes, you know what they did to Henrietta, and you know what the Tuskegee? Oh, everybody gonna put Tuskegee, but you don’t realize that Mama, big, Mama’s medication doesn’t work. That’s right, because none of us were in any of the research that

Amber Cabral 12:20

exactly so, and our identity matters to that. Thank you, right? It matters to that. We can’t get it right. We can’t unless we’re willing to lean in and be a part of that story. Yeah, right. And so, yeah, I love that. Um, this is an obvious question, but I do want to hear your thoughts about it there. You know, what are your thoughts about equitable access to storytelling? Do you think that there is equitable access to storytelling? Well, you know, this is a little of a tricky question, too. The

Lisa Cunningham 12:46

thing about it is, is that I always lean on the side of hope. Yeah, so I do see the progress that has been made, but let’s just keep it real. I mean, we still live in a society where certain people get to tell stories to the biggest audience, that’s right. And so we’ve got to change that. No matter what, no matter what, we’ve got to change it. It’s funny that I remember they were saying that when Nicole Kidman and Reese Witherspoon got together to do that HBO show, that I loved those the fires show, I forget, oh yeah, little

Amber Cabral 13:22

fires everywhere. Was that the one? Is that, the one you’re talking about, it had, it was such a great, yeah, it was, like, it was a lot of microaggressions, microaggressions everywhere. Yes, yes, yes, okay, they

Lisa Cunningham 13:31

made the show because they’re just like, we want to see more women led characters on TV shows. And so they got together and did it themselves. Why? Because they have privilege.

Amber Cabral 13:45

They had the privilege. And so

Lisa Cunningham 13:47

what does that say for us, right? But I think that we can model things like what Issa Rae did. Yes, we can model that and say, this works. She incubated that and then took it to a larger scale, and it worked for everybody. It worked for the network, right? Because, you know, it’s got to work the bottom line, and we’re also starting to prove that our stories matter and can make money. So unfortunately, that’s what it’s going to take on that side. And then outside of that, though, we’ve got to start getting out of our silos on social media and whatnot. Like, yeah, we’ve got to,

Amber Cabral 14:23

we’ve got to seek out other stories. Yeah, I think the seeking out gets hard, especially when the climate is really contentious. Like, right now we’ve been in, like, I don’t know what are we like, year eight of a very contentious political climate, and so it’s just really hard, I think, to go outside of that and be willing to hear someone else’s perspective. But we miss so many things when we fail to do that, when I’m unwilling to just subject myself to someone else’s perspective. Yeah, we do. You know you’re losing a lot. You are, yeah, yeah. I think it’s a dangerous thing. So you gave a TED talk, which I thoroughly admire, and I it’s coming, yeah, and I appreciate that. Yeah, and what you talked about was how people were coming to Atlanta to escape discrimination, and how Atlanta was creating a more equitable space. I would love for you to talk a little bit about that, and then also maybe give some recommendations about what you think cities in general could do better to create more equitable spaces.

Lisa Cunningham 15:17

You know, it’s funny, because that TEDx talk was in 2019, still relevant. And that’s the painful part of it, yeah, is that it’s still relevant. You know, there’s this thing that the it’s an index that the HRC, the Human Rights Campaign, puts out every year. It’s, it’s the municipal Equality Index, and it basically tells you how cities show up, how that infrastructure is as it relates to the LGBTQ community. How do they have laws that protect and when you look at a city like, I’m from the privilege of being in Atlanta, where we always get 100% 100% right, but you look at the the report, and you just click on a city that’s not even 30 minutes away, that’s right, like Roswell, Jordan’s right, and it’ll say 5% How is that even possible? So when you have people that are saying to us, why are you all Why are you constantly bringing this up. Why is this always a thing? You know, it’s always a thing because we don’t have equity.

Amber Cabral 16:29

You can’t go anywhere. You can find like these three little cities

Lisa Cunningham 16:32

in 29 states, you can still be denied housing. You can be denied that you just want to walk into a certain business and and patronize it, and you can’t. I mean, there’s so many in 29 states in this country, you’re not protected. So I think that that part of it, in terms of being in an Atlanta, it’s a lot easier, yeah, than it’s not, yeah. Quite frankly, I’ll share this one of my personal biggest pain points. And you see who I am and how I am, this is how I am all day, mostly every day. This is your act, right? This is you. This is me. I’m a pretty happy go. Look, you are. Yes, when I’m out, I do this strategy thing, right? Because I immediately get anxiety. If I start to feel like I have to use the restroom in public, I start, I go, Oh Lord, I drink too much water. Oh no, I come up with a strategy just to use the restroom in public, and that’s because I am more masculine presenting I’m she her all day long, right? Was born that, right? But I present a different way, right? So when I head to that restroom, there’s gonna be someone who comes out that says, you’re going to the wrong restroom. And then I say, No, I’m a woman. And then they say, No, you’re not.

Amber Cabral 18:05

Yeah, that’s the story. That’s it. That’s it. I remember the first time you shared that with me like I it just gave me chills, and it still gives me chills, because I just can’t imagine, with all of the things that my life is hard about. I cannot imagine my life being hard about going to the restroom. And you’re like, Yeah, I’m thinking about that anytime I leave. I’m like, Okay, what’s the plan? Let me not drink any water over here. Oh, I want to have a cocktail with you, but I can only have one because I need to be thoughtful about that’s

Lisa Cunningham 18:33

insane. And my partner is like, be defiant. Walk in there confidently. I’m like, you know, it’s

Amber Cabral 18:41

aggressive. It keeps happening.

Lisa Cunningham 18:45

And so that’s why, when you talk about, how can we model a city like in Atlanta, you know, gender neutral restaurants, absolutely, really simple, if you don’t want to, you know, while you’re also just educating the public about the fact that, you know, I’m a pretty great citizen, right? You know, you are trying to harm anybody, exactly. But the part where I’ve been at an actual stall, the part where I’ve been at an actual sink, washing my hands, and there’s a woman next to me with her four year old daughter, and she’s clutching her tighter because I’m in the bathroom. That’s wild.

Amber Cabral 19:29

That’s wild. Something’s got to change. Yeah, it’s, it’s the narrative. It is the narrative. It’s the narrative that that’s what has to change. Um, thank you for sharing that. That’s that, that story, it grabs me every single time I still just, I think it’s so unfortunate that something as simple as a basic biological function that actually is something we all have to do, has to be a matter of debate like that kind of blows my mind a little bit. Hey there. I hope you’re enjoying the episode, and in fact, if you are. Here you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living. I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate allyship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together. You can reach out to me@cabraraco.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call, and we will chat with you soon back to the show. So let me ask you this, because we’ve talked about a bit of the hard stuff. Yeah, are there any privileges that you think are associated with being a member of the LGBTQ community. And I mean that in the broad way, not necessarily the little narrow bucket we like to tuck all the folks in. Do you think there are any privileges that maybe folks don’t necessarily have visibility to that might be good for them to be aware of?

Lisa Cunningham 20:55

Yeah. I mean, I think in this country, they we pick and choose what’s hot.

Amber Cabral 21:02

That’s true. We do that. That is the American way.

Lisa Cunningham 21:05

So is there something that is going on with a particular sector right now to where, oh, we gotta get, we gotta get more gay women directors, you know what I mean. So, yeah, so, so, so is there a privilege that comes from that absolutely, the calls that I get are always, oh, we gotta have Lisa in the room. We gotta have or if Lisa another, Lisa in the room, right? Gotta be there, right? And so what that does, though, is that, at least, you know, I remember I heard something once where Martin Luther King’s father, they had invited him to have the choir come sing at the gun with the wind, you know, party and everything. And they said, but, but you’re not. They’re not even allowing us to be properly there to begin with. But his point was, if I’m invited, though, right? I’m going to come so that it’s still, it’s going to bridge the gap. And I think that that’s a lot of what I see myself doing these days, yeah, you’re shaking hands and bridging the gap.

Amber Cabral 22:12

Yeah, you’re bridging the gap. Well, I mean, that’s we do need that. I don’t appreciate, I don’t appreciate how it must feel to have to be that person. There are definitely some spaces in my life where I’ve felt like I’ve had to bridge the gap. It’s, you know, likely it’s been a place where we had to speak up. Because, you know, I’m gonna say the thing. You’re gonna say, Okay, I’m gonna say it. So I, you know, I do think that that experience is undervalued, but I also think it creates some really powerful stories like it puts us in a position to talk about the things, you know, because regardless of what happens to that first few, right? It is going to be a dialog, and often a dialog that, for some reason or another, people have been avoiding, yeah, so I really do love that part. All right, so let me ask you this too, thinking about allyship. Because, you know, my first book was about allyship,

Lisa Cunningham 22:59

the book that is like the Bible of Dei. I love that. Thank you.

Amber Cabral 23:06

So when we are thinking about being allies for a particular community, so whether that’s the queer community, whether that’s allies for black women, whether that’s allies for young people, because we definitely know there’s a lot of that with all of the school shootings, what is something that you think it’s super important to keep in mind as you are working to be an ally? What’s something that you think everybody should be keeping at the top of their mind?

Lisa Cunningham 23:29

I think you ended it with, what is the most important keeping it at the top of your mind? Yes, and because we get bottled down with I just thought about it when I was on my way here today. I’ve never written to a senator.

Amber Cabral 23:47

Wow, never. I have absolutely written to several senators.

Lisa Cunningham 23:52

Never done it, yeah, but yet, I’ve been impactful. I’ve rallied, yeah, I’ve done so. I think we get stuck with this thing of thinking that we’ve got to show up in this big West. No, yes, just keep equity top of mind in your everyday life. Yeah. So the last time we’re in New York City right now, right? But the last time I was here, I was nominated for a PR Week award, and I’m at this wonderful Gala, and I’m sitting up there, and because I was enjoying the environment so much, what did I do? I drank too much water. Let me explain Water, water. So I had chugged out too many waters, and all of a sudden I had to use the restroom. So I’m in this wonderful, you know, Tux type outfit, and I begrudgingly do The Green Mile to start walking towards the bathroom, because I knew that it wasn’t like the movie theater. This is ball gown. Look. Right stuff, like, right, you know? And here I’m coming in this so I walk in, I decide my best approach was to make an an admission as soon as I walked in the door. Because, you know, the ladies room,

Amber Cabral 25:13

it’s always a long Yes, yes, yeah, exactly. So

Lisa Cunningham 25:16

there was that foyer before the bath, exactly. Come on now, yeah. So I get to the foyer part, and I said, ladies, I just want you to know I’m a woman. This woman in the prettiest gown dress, said, Of course you are, honey. Come here. And it disarmed everyone. And that

Amber Cabral 25:37

was her. That was allyship. That was it, that was it.

Lisa Cunningham 25:41

I mean, I literally tear up every time I think about it.

Amber Cabral 25:46

I love that. So that took bravery on both sides. I think it’s important to remember that too. The last line of my book, both books, is go forth and be brave. Because I think this requires bravery. I have to be willing to say this is what I need, which is what you do. And then I can imagine you doing that, which is why it’s a little funny. And then the other side of that is folks have to be willing to step in and meet you for that bravery and say, of course, yeah, right. And so there’s that part that I you know, I really do try to drive that home in my books. Like this isn’t easy. Here are the tools. But it isn’t discussed often enough. I think when we’re talking about allyship, because we think it’s sexy, right? You know, we think it has to be cute or visible or pretty, no. And very often, all folks are asking you to do is meet them in their bravery. And that’s, and that’s, that’s,

Lisa Cunningham 26:38

I like, how you tell us kind of when you don’t always know when you’re going to step up. That’s right? And I love that you say that in your book, like somebody’s mispronouncing a word, right? Yeah. And so you’re you’re saying to yourself, is this a time when I want to step in and tell and tell this person? Hey, I need you to pronounce this differently because this means something to me. Yes, and so, and then you give the wonderful tools on how to approach that conversation, but that’s what allyship is, and I think that you’ve got to start making sure that we don’t think it, that it has to be all about writing senators correct,

Amber Cabral 27:20

although Dude, please write your senators. It is, it is useful, and they do listen. They may not abide, but they do listen. Okay, so I have a final question for you. All right. So this podcast is called guilty privilege, okay? And the reason I called it that is because I recognize that we all have some privilege, and we don’t always have awareness of it, and when we do, sometimes we feel a little guilty about it. And so what I wanted to make sure this podcast did was highlight the privilege that we have. In your case, the privilege to tell folks stories, and, you know, show how it was being pushed forward and how we share that privilege to be impactful. So the question I have for you is, what is one privilege that you have, that you refuse to feel guilty about?

Lisa Cunningham 28:05

Oh, that’s funny. I didn’t see that question.

Amber Cabral 28:10

That’s okay. Take your time. I am honored to have stumped you.

Lisa Cunningham 28:16

Let’s see, okay, what is one privilege that I have, that I refuse to feel guilty about. I think the one privilege that I have is where I’m from. I really, really do. I’m from the city of Martin Luther King, yeah, you know, there’s a phrase that it says Atlanta, the city too busy to hate, you know, yeah, there’s a privilege that comes from that. Yeah. So my experience growing up was not like someone’s experience in Dothan, Alabama, Oh, for sure, right, right? And so, but I don’t apologize for it. You should. I’m happy about it, yes, and it made me who I am absolutely

Amber Cabral 28:55

and I love that. Yeah, so great having you. Oh, this was great. I’m so glad I got to see you. I

Lisa Cunningham 29:01

am good. I am too. You.