SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, equity, privilege, ally, inclusion, work, diversity, uncomfortable, life, apologize, conversation, feel, feedback, apologies, podcast, build, words, experience, hear, skepticism

SPEAKERS

Jessica Hurley, Amber

 

Amber  00:03

privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes where you live, the places you frequent your network capital, and even how you spend your money. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty, and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege.

 

Jessica Hurley  00:28

Y’all, we are back for another episode of rich in real life. I’m your host, Jessica Hurley. And this is probably going to be the most jaw dropping episode honest, transparent, and necessary conversation I have probably ever had rich in real life. And I’m so excited. And here’s why. I have spent the majority of my podcast career over the last five years trying to put words to feelings that you have that a lot of times we together cannot explain. I am obsessed with putting words to your feelings. And I will tell you that I met my flipping match when I met this woman, because she puts words to culture, equity, privilege, so many things that are happening circumstantially in our external world, that a lot of times we don’t speak on, we don’t act on we don’t converse about because we don’t know how. And I am very guilty of this and having these conversations with her. Just her explaining some of the words and the things that we’re going to talk about are going to, they have changed my life. And so I want to give this to you, because I know it is going to change yours and the way in which you show up in the world. So this incredible human is the author of two great books. She is the author of allies and advocates, and a book that is called say more about that. And trust me when I tell you you are going to learn to learn from her today how to say more about that she is an award winning inclusion strategist. She is the podcast host of guilty privilege. She is a founder and incredible creator and I truly believe in incredible human. And so I am honored to have her today. So let’s welcome to rich and real life. Amber Cobra,

 

Amber  02:13

I feel like there should be a round of applause. Mike, can you just come with me everywhere I need to be introduced? Like that was amazing. Everyone says that,

 

Jessica Hurley  02:20

like, can you just introduce

 

Amber  02:23

me get the recording? I will hand it over. And people are always like, can you send me your introduction? Yes, yes, I can. Yes, I

 

Jessica Hurley  02:27

can. Jessica, can you write my introduction? Literally, that

 

Amber  02:31

was amazing. Thank you. That’s my favorite part about

 

Jessica Hurley  02:33

podcasting. And I think you got to see that in years is that I get to invite people that I’m literally and I say this candidly that I’m in love with that I’m like, I get to talk to you all the time, I would talk to even more if I could, you’re an incredible human being the work you do is amazing. And now I’m like I need I need I need y’all to hear this. Because I put in words, your feelings. This woman is about to put words to your whole life, everything that’s happening from corporate culture, to external culture, to your life to your convert, just just wait for it. Y’all get ready. So thank you for joining us.

 

Amber  03:12

I’m so happy to be here. I can’t wait to see where this can be great. Okay,

 

Jessica Hurley  03:17

so I have to start with a conversation that you and I have had about where your career begun, which you have been in corporate positions very high all over the place, doing incredible work for a very long time. But I know 2020 was when your career took a turn. Well, you got to really step into some incredible work. Yeah. Can you say more about that?

 

Amber  03:41

Yes, absolutely can. I knew diversity was the thing I wanted to do. And I’m saying diversity because that’s what it used to be called. We now use diversity, equity and inclusion. And some of us lean into different parts of that some of us lean harder into equity or inclusion. But there was a time where it was just diversity, right? Where people were like, Wait, we’re missing some people. And so I took an interest in it very early in my career, I used to work for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan Blue Care Network, the HMO arm, and I was voluntold to participate on like a Diversity Council basically. And, you know, that was when my interest first piqued and I live. I’m originally from the city of Detroit, which is a predominantly black city. And so I was just like, Yo, this is the thing this is we should talk about this, you know, and so I took an interest there. And my career grew and evolved and I ended up ultimately after several years leading diversity strategy at Walmart. So I reported to Chief Diversity Officer in that space and had responsibility for developing the strategy to deliver to the organization. How does this come to life in our in the company’s culture. Walmart is the biggest company in the history of the world. So as you can imagine, it takes quite a bit of strategy Ising correct, you know, to shift in organization of that size. And so I learned a lot, I learned a lot about me, I learned a lot about being resilient. I learned a lot about how to build programs that people will actually use. And then they decided they were going to go in a different direction in terms of org structure. And I was like, I’m out, right. So I left. I was invited to leave, it was not a firing, it was a hey, so do you want this? Or do you want that? And I was like, I’ll take that. And so I took that and left, and probably fumbled for a couple years trying to figure out what I was going to do. And then I started to get phone calls from people who knew my work. And they were like, oh, you know, job, can you come consult for me and do this thing. And I was like, Oh, sure. But also looking for a job, because that’s what I knew was corporate space. And so I was gonna go and get another corporate job, I interview with all the people people want to work for. And I had just gotten really good at listening for what I wanted. And I wasn’t hearing it. So I hadn’t accepted a role. I never got declined for role, but I hadn’t accepted one because I hadn’t heard what I wanted. And then I started my company. So I started doing diversity, equity and inclusion training. At that point, inclusive leadership, which is actually a training we still do today. We now have some other core trainings, but that was the one we started with. And I did that from 2018 to 2020. And things were good. Like I was building a business, right? I was really like, Okay, this is people are excited about what I do. So that was it. And then George Floyd was murdered. Everybody was in the house because of COVID. And my phone. I mean, it was on fire. I didn’t even know what to do. I didn’t even know how to even begin to respond to rise to the occasion. But I was actually already working with a client I still work with today, I work with gap, gap, Inc. And so they called me and said, we need to do something about ally ship. And I was like, Okay, great. Let’s build it. We got on a call. They said some things I said some things, I came back to them a couple days later, like this is the this is it. This is the formula. This is the tactic. This is how it works. And I did that session. And it feels like everybody in GAAP called somebody they knew at another company. And all of a sudden my business was like, like, people were calling left and right, I was doing virtual trainings for 11,000 people at a time, like it was insane. I just got the chills. Wild, I was just like, what is happening, I did have the foresight, because I know people who know video, to call a couple of my video friends when COVID first kicked off, and was like, so listen, people are gonna be at home, they’re gonna be calling to figure out how to get training done virtually helped me get my setup together. So I was fortunate enough to have people who knew that and so I did have a good setup, which was great, because people want things that look good, right. But I also I just thrived. I’m really good with being able to kind of like facilitate, you know, in a virtual way where it still feels really engaging and brings people in. And so that changed my life. Like it changed what money meant. For me, it changed what opportunity looked like it shifted me from, you know, I always tell people working at Walmart, you’re running a mini business all the time, because there’s all these little companies in the company. But like, all of a sudden, I was like, oh, shoot, this is a company, like it’s a business and like we are bringing in income. And I had to figure out things like, you know, accounting and like it was just a lot. And so that was the thing that really changed. What I realized I had responsibility for. Like, I think, initially, I thought I was just teaching a thing that I knew. And then after that, I was like, Oh, I’m good at this. And I have a responsibility to do it and do it well. And so yeah, that’s that that was the tipping point for cabal CO and what I do today,

 

Jessica Hurley  08:53

and the work she does is incredible. And so I want to do two things. I want to backtrack for the audience. And I hate to do this, but I think it’s so necessary, because I think the definition is ever evolving and always changing. And then people make it their own versions. And we’d love to just make up words and do things and say random things. So what does Diversity Equity and Inclusion mean to you? And how do you what do you say to these corporate companies that these that their leaders who lead Yeah, and they’re people who lead need to understand?

 

Amber  09:21

Yeah, so a couple things. I teach dei diversity, equity inclusion, I try to use the words because I think that acronyms are confusing, and there are a lot of di acronyms. And I think it creates a lot of confusion. So I try to say the words but I teach those things in a way that’s different than most people teach. So I try to make it very accessible and practical and things you can digest. So I’m going to give you some definitions, but my expectation is not that you understand the definitions that can rattle them off. It’s more that you understand the concept because lots of us know definitions for lots of things that we don’t do. Well, I’d like you to do it well. Okay, that’s what I’d like. So diversity diversity is you know, a group of people with their unique beliefs, styles, perspectives, experiences, identities, ideas of its people and all their stuff. All right, it’s me and all the things that come with, right? Like, whatever that is, whatever, I think whatever I believe whatever I’m interested in, it’s going to be here, no matter what. If we roll into our local supermarket, if we go to, you know, our local schools, you know, dropping our children off, you know, whatever that is, you’re going to encounter diversity, unique belief styles, perspectives, experiences, identities, ideas, opinions. It’s everywhere. You can’t do anything about that. That’s what diversity is. It just exists, which is part of why the industry evolved away from oh, we need to have more diversity. No, no, no, we have that. We have

 

Jessica Hurley  10:38

that right already listening to you. And I’m like, that’s not the way we use the word diversity. Yeah,

 

Amber  10:42

it’s not, but that’s what it really is. Okay, I’m going to skip equity and go to inclusion. Inclusion is when we value support include, connect with champion, those people with that unique belief styles, perspective experiences, IDs, ideas, opinions, all of those things. It is the labor, it is the part where I am intentionally saying, Okay, you exist with all of your uniqueness. But I also need to make sure that I’m listening to you. And then I’m thinking about what your ideas are. And I’m creating a space where you’re willing to lean in, and I’m thoughtful about what you may want to contribute as I am also contributing. That is when we get to the inclusion part. So like the diversity is just there. Right? The inclusion is the work. So I always give people a pizza example, right? When you’re gonna make a pizza from scratch. Okay, I’m not talking about Domino’s Papa John’s, and you’re gonna make a pizza from scratch. What do you do you go get the stuff, you get the flour, you get the you know, toppings you’re gonna use, you got to do the things. You’ve got to chop the vegetables, you’ve got to spread the cheese, you’ve got to take the oven. The inclusion is the work part. It’s the work. It’s the chopping of the vegetables. It’s the putting together it’s the Hey, are you gluten free? Oh, who’s vegan? Oh, wait a minute, you don’t eat dairy? Let me do yours with no cheese. It is. It is having the willingness to say everybody’s got their unique thing. And I’ve got all these unique ingredients. How am I going to put them together and make it work? So diversity is the difference. Inclusion is the work. Yes, diversity is the mix. Inclusion is making the mix work. Got it. That’s what it is. Now, equity is a little bit interesting. Because you know, it’s one of those things that first of all, if you work in any corporate environment, you hear equity, the first thing you think about is like, what your percentage is going to be, you know, if your business does well, like what’s your equity in the company, but equity also refers to the experience you’re having in terms of equitable experience in terms of access. So like, what do I get the opportunity to have access to because of my uniqueness. And so lots of us think about equality. And so I want to clarify that first. And then I’ll dive into equity equality is basically like imagine, I don’t know we go to the same lunch place, and we’re ordering sandwiches and we ordered the same sandwich, it’s the same time of day, you know, we both ordered the same thing, we’re gonna pay the same price, we’re gonna get the same thing. That’s equality, it doesn’t matter that you are a white woman, and I’m a black woman, it doesn’t matter, you know that you’re paying by credit card, and I’m paying with cash. No, that matters because we are going to the same same price. That’s equality, right? Equity is, yeah, I want that sandwich. But I need it to be gluten free. And also I kind of like my bread toasted. So I want my gluten free bread toasted. And you may want vegan cheese, right, that’s when we start to get into the equity of it, you start to get what you need. So like, I want to have lunch with you, Jessica. But I need to have it at a place where I can get a gluten free sandwich. And you can get something that has vegan cheese, and we can still enjoy lunch together. That’s what equity is about. It’s about creating an opportunity for us to have access to what we need, not just oh, you can get this and you can get this and you can it’s like yeah, I mean, this is it’s like giving everyone the same size shoe. Right? Like that’s equality. Everybody don’t need the same size shoe, I need to shoot it works for me, right? And so that’s what equity is essentially saying. And so when we put those three together, the reason why we have dei is diversity. It’s our uniqueness, right? The existence of that equity is the experience we were trying to have where you’re going to give me what I need, or I can survive, or I can operate where I can be effective, whether that’s at work or in you know, my day to day. And then inclusion means that you are willing to do the labor to make sure that my identity belongs here that I have an opportunity to experience what it feels like to be connected. You don’t have to remember any of those words, really. But just think about the concepts. You know what I mean? Like diversity is just our uniqueness. It’s the mix of who we are equity, I want to get what I need to be effective inclusion, I want to make sure that my uniqueness has an opportunity to be considered here. Someone’s doing the work the work to make sure that what it is that I am bringing to the table is also being thought of and included in the space. That’s it.

 

Jessica Hurley  14:47

Y’all should have paid for this. I should have paid for this. This is so we are five minutes in and I’m like oh my god. It’s

 

Amber  14:54

so easy to me but like I also think that like Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Right now is a career. And so people are like, Oh, it’s so hard. And I’m like it’s not. It’s really, really simple. And the reason I always tell people I think I teach it differently than most people is it like, I have no vested interest in you being able to rattle off a definition. But I do want you to be able to be thoughtful about what it means for you to be equitable in the way that you operate, I do want you to know how to be thoughtful about how you can be more inclusive in the way that you do the things you do in your life, whether that’s through parties or you know, engage with your children or whatever, I do want you to have enough of an understanding to be able to bring those things to life. Because ultimately, that’s what we’re really looking for. I don’t give a shit what your definitions sound like, like people use different definitions in the ones that I use, but I want you to get the concept and be able to like action on it.

 

Jessica Hurley  15:51

I want to add to that is one of the most beautiful things I think not about because there’s a lot this is a career now. So there’s a lot of people that do this. Yeah, I have seen this popped up. Yeah, 2020 2021. Everybody

 

Amber  16:03

was a DA right away. Everyone is now afraid to do it. Because the Supreme Court has had an opinion about affirmative action come out, right. And so now everyone who was like popping up doing it has pivots like, oh, yeah, I do leadership. You know, whatever. And I’m like, oh, so no matter no more. You notice the budget has moved? And so yeah, the intention is, it’s still incredibly important, I’d still do the work that I do, because I think it’s important for us to be able to be considerate of the experiences of the people around us. Because at the end of the day, yes, we are all human. But all of us are not experiencing access to humanity the same way. And this is the thing that’s in the way of that. And so that’s why I still continue to do the work. You

 

Jessica Hurley  16:46

see, you took the words right out of my mouth about what is happening now. So thank you that put words to that. Yeah, but what I think is so beautiful about what you do, and I haven’t seen it done this way with anyone else. And I’m not saying it doesn’t exist out there. But this is what I’ve witnessed that you do, day in and day out in the work that you do, and the friendships that you have. And every conversation I have had with you, or I’ve seen you have externally with the people you work with your network and your friends, is that you, this is a gift to everyone. Oh, it is so nice. You are not you are building a bridge for everyone. Because one thing I see you do often is like, you’re like I am, I am here to build your arsenal of words and ways to communicate with people to offer a thing that will make the world around us better for everyone. Yes, especially. And I’m gonna say this as a white woman, the white people that are out there leading are they I’m sure they all have their own reasoning and all the different ways. But they are at times so scared to do this. Because they don’t know how they don’t know the ways to say it. They don’t know how to not be offensive, they are naturally offensive. So there are just so many things at play here. And what I’ve loved about what I see you do as you often come in, and you’re like, Hey, that’s not gonna work, that’s not gonna work. You can’t say that like that. But guess what, I’m not judging anyone, you don’t have the craft, or the dictionary or the vocabulary or any of this understanding from the world that you were the privilege that you have been given your entire life to be able to do this. So here’s my gift to you, here’s what I’m doing for you is changing all of that for you so that you can create a better culture, workplace, etc. Yeah, and I don’t think like, that’s the part that makes me want to knock on people’s doors is I’m like, Hey, there’s someone here that doesn’t give a shit about the place in which you lead in right now. And they can make you a better leader, make you a better people leader and make you make your leaders better. Like all of the things by making this your culture in your workplace better. You just have to be open and understand that this is one thing that you’re gonna have to sit your ass down and learn from two

 

Amber  18:52

things about what you said are super, like, I want to just zoom in a little bit. One of the things that is the most frustrating for me about what I do is that people think it is just a work thing. And I’m like, it’s not it’s not this is a how you live your life thing. And so I want you to understand that like if if I am walking around saying, inclusion is important to me, equity is important to me. I am operating in that lens, whether I am in the workplace or not. And so what does that mean? What does it look like? And so, the first thing

 

Jessica Hurley  19:25

you taught me, by the way, literally because like I were like Don’t say that word that way. And here’s why. And I was like, it’s just me and you in this room and you’re like, I know don’t use that work that way.

 

Amber  19:35

Yes. Because I think it’s important that you understand the impact of your existence in life. Like in life, like I don’t want just to be included at a job. I don’t have a job. I have a job at a company. So I go to people’s jobs. So like y’all having inclusion and equity in your workplace. is done very little for me

 

Jessica Hurley  20:02

it actually, outside of the hours that we work facts,

 

Amber  20:04

I need you to have this mindset in a broad sense. And so I want I want people to understand and this, this goes back to the second point that you just kind of brought up, which is like, the privilege piece of it. We don’t talk a lot about privilege. And you know, you and I went back and forth about guilty privilege. I was like, Oh, I don’t know if you’ve already for that. I’ll never give me a thing. Right. We’re so ready. But it’s happening and people love it. And I do think the thing about it is that privilege is it’s a thing that we feel real squirrely about we get real dicey about privilege, we feel like, you know, oh, I’m not privileged, because I worked hard to get it don’t matter if you worked hard, and you got it, you’re still good, guess what, I’m privileged, I am privileged in multiple ways. I am privileged in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with the amount of work that I’ve done. Am I also still oppressed? Yes, I’m black woman, you know, I mean, like, I live in a, you know, a country that prioritizes whiteness, right and white supremacy. So absolutely, I’m still oppressed. But I also have privilege. I have the privilege of speaking, you know, English in this country, because that is, you know, the language that we speak predominantly, here, I have the privilege of being light skinned. Because we all know that colorism thing is a real thing. I have the privilege of being stereotypically pretty, pretty privileged. All right, it creates its own thing. And so like, I think, the more we’re able to just kind of admit that like privilege plays a part in what we have access to. And if we could just be honest about it. Yeah, right. I had a moment and I’m gonna bring this full circle, but I had a moment. I used to have been to Arkansas because that’s where Walmart is headquartered. And I had actually a person who reported to me young lady, and she was very dark skinned woman, short hair. And this was I also had short hair. And you know, we both kind of like, leaned into a lot of similar styles at the time. And so she asked me one day, I love your workplace makeup look, let’s go shopping. Like I would love to go, squirrel and around just to figure out what you’re using. And I’m like, okay, cool. Let’s do it. I am this complexion. She is a very dark skinned woman. I didn’t even think about it. We went on Sunday after brunch, we went had our little boozy brunch hangout time we go. And I take her where I go to get the things that I get. And literally the first store we walk into, I realize there was nothing in her complexion. And I was like that feeling right there is what keeps people from doing the work. That feeling right there is what makes people decide, okay, I don’t know that I want to continue to have dark skinned friends, because I don’t know how to navigate that. I don’t know that I want to continue to connect with black women, because I don’t know how to navigate that. I don’t know what to say right now. And so I’m not going to put myself in this position anymore. And so then what you do is you decide that you’re going to continue to connect with people that look like you that sound like you they feel like you that are gonna be able to go into the stores that you go into to buy the makeup that you buy. But what I did is I turned to her and I was like, I am so sorry, I did not think about any of the other complexions of makeup, when I invited you to come shop with me. And I am completely embarrassed and I do not know what to do about it. In her exact words to me, I will never forget this where I appreciate that you noticed. So like, those moments are what lead to Fenty beauty, which by the way, wasn’t around at that time, those moments leaning into that. That’s the thing that gets us to recognizing that like, Yo, there are people that don’t have the same thing I have, they don’t have access to the same thing I have, I am currently living in a building that is having a water crisis. I’m not gonna get into the details. But like I on the way out of the building. The other day, I saw a woman who I’ve seen very frequently she is a wheelchair user. And I was like, you stay in this building, don’t you? And she said yes. And I said, I can imagine this is incredibly difficult for you. She said yes, it’s incredibly difficult because no one’s thinking about accessibility, because you want to hand me two gallons of water to take upstairs, because that’s what they’re doing in my building to make sure we at least have water. And I can’t carry two gallons of water the same way someone else can. Right. And so like, when I when I think about all of this, it’s like, we have to get clear about the simple ways our privilege shows up the simple ways. I’m able to walk I people think I’m pretty I speak the language of my community, I have access to whatever, right, and how we are able to take that power and use it in our day to day to create access, opportunity, resource impact, etc. In the ways that we’re living. That’s what I care about. That’s all I care about. I care about it for black women, but I also care about it for other folks like folks who are using wheelchairs and folks who don’t speak the same language because here’s the thing, the more we all can get what we have a value out The richer we all become right? So I’m going to try to create that opportunity and so like that’s, that’s what pushes me and motivates me to do this work. And also the reason I do it differently the reason why I’m not always like no, this is a definition for inclusion. You know, like remember it this way like no that’s I don’t I don’t care. I don’t care if you know the definition I care for you know how How to embed it in your life. And so that’s that’s the direction in the way that I teach. And what I also try to do with the guilty privilege podcasts. I said a lot of words, they’re sorry.

 

Jessica Hurley  25:10

This is This is Oh my god. I’m like, This is what everyone. It’s like going on a date and you’re like, attracted to the surface thing. And then you sit down and the person’s like, I make my own money. And I have created the life I desire and like, do you want to be a part of it. And I’m just listening to this. And I’m like, This is not what everyone knows that they it’s not what everyone wants, but it is what everyone needs. And I’m like, Oh, my God. And that’s one of the things that you first taught me was like, This is not about the workplace. This is about how you show up in the world. And it changed the way I spoke the way I use words, it will forever change the word the way I saw the word privilege. And the word ally ship and the word advocate. Like it changed everything for me. And so when I, when I hear all of this, the first thing I’m immediately thinking is, and I’m sure you know, other ways, but all of the ways that people get uncomfortable in that tough moment. And then they pull back. I literally last week I did last week, I was on a call with another team. And I pronounced the girl’s name wrong. I wanted to mail in my chair. Yeah. And then I thought in that moment, I said, okay, all you can do is take responsibility and accountability, apologize, asked for the correct pronunciation of her name, and make sure moving forward, that you respect her and her name, right. Moving forward. Right. And I thought about you in that incident, because what I appreciate about the work you do is you are not here to chastise people for their behavior. Now, you are here to give them clarity of vocabulary, tools, and the tools to walk differently in life. Yep,

 

Amber  26:56

I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode. And if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations, to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called allies and advocates. And this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful Ally has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say more about that. And I’ll say more about that is more about helping you to speak up to push back to challenge to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult. And in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things. You can go pick up those books anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there. Back to the episode. One of the first things I actually teach us apologies, I teach apologies all the time. Because people like we first two things about apologies, one, we are bad at them. We have all seen, you know the big company fucking terrible. They come out with like, we are committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. And we really regret that someone would ever think that we would represent something of that. And we’re like, what are where is the apology? Right, right? Like, yes, and that you’re saying that you would never do? Great, but it happens. So like, are you going to apologize for it? Or what? And what are you going to do about it? And so this is hands down. One of the things I teach all of my clients and we go through it repeatedly, an apology has two parts. Okay, two parts. None of them are the conditional things we’d like to add to apologies. Oh, I’m so sorry. You feel that way? Well, I didn’t mean it. Who cares? Who cares? Your apology is two parts. I apologize for moving forward. I will. I apologize for mispronouncing your name moving forward. I’ll make sure to say it correctly. Can you pronounce it for me, please? I apologize for my remarks about Latina talent moving forward on my bias when speaking publicly. I apologize for moving forward. I will. That is an apology. Now. After that, you can say I didn’t mean it. I wasn’t being considerate. I’m so sorry. I have another friend who says their name differently. It’s spelled the same. I apologize for moving forward, I will let me know that you know what you did to break it? And this is what you’re going to do to correct it going forward. Now I can hear the conditionals I don’t give a damn about the conditionals. Otherwise, because those are your excuses. Absolutely. And here’s the thing, I may have a vested interest in your excuses, if I know you don’t mean it, and what you’re going to do to fix it. But otherwise, I don’t care. So like I make a point to highlight that. And that’s a simple tool. It’s a simple tool. I can’t tell you how many people messaged me to say listen, I tried that on my husband.

 

Jessica Hurley  29:42

Do y’all hear this? This is actually relationship advice. If a man apologized to me like this, and then it was like But hey, here’s all the reasons why

 

Amber  29:51

I apologize for moving forward. I will This is why I thought it was okay. You’ll be like Oh, you thought

 

Jessica Hurley  29:56

about this ever? This is why you live the life you live. Okay,

 

Amber  30:00

I’m gonna tell you, my boyfriend tells me all the time when I don’t apologize. What because by the way, I do slip up. Okay? When I don’t apologize when I go, Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. He’ll say you’re sorry for what? And I’ll go, Oh, you’re right. I apologize for moving forward, I was what I will do. Right. And that is an inclusion equity thing. But it’s something you’re going to use throughout your whole life, you can apologize to your children, your parents, you know what I mean? Like, every relationship in your life has an opportunity for you to do better and potentially a space where you need to apologize, we think of inclusion, equity, diversity, we think of it as a work thing. And I’m like, No, it’s a life thing. You’re gonna apologize in your life. So like, do you have the tools and so I try to teach this in a way where you understand that like, the moment your row raging down the street, you’re in your bias, you know what I mean? Like, I want to paint that picture for you, you know, the moment that you’re making assumptions about who’s the greatest basketball player, you’re having a moment where you are having some bias in that space to write like, and I want you to see that. And it’s not necessarily saying that you’re a bad person. And that bias is to make you a bad horrible being. It’s you understanding how it works and how it shows up so that you recognize that the concerns that you have about the way your children are being treated in school, the concerns that you’re having about the way we make decisions around political candidates, the decisions that are being made for us, you know, from the Supreme Court, the conversations that we are hearing in our workplaces around how we are being how we are distributing work, and making selections around hires, all of that. All of that is an equity thing, your inability to walk into certain clothing stores and find certain sizes, despite the average woman being a size 16 is an equity matter, that is not a thing happening at your job. And so like with some people’s jobs, because some people work in retail, but you know what I mean? Like, I want people to understand, this is not a thing that you are doing for the moment, this is a thing you are doing for your life. And if we can at least just put that lens on, and be willing to understand the impact that it has on our day to day as a whole. We can have a grander experience collectively in the impact that we’re talking about that we want, can actually happen because it is little things like knowing how to apologize, it is little things like knowing how to and being willing to speak up, it is being able to push past your discomfort and say, Okay, this is a moment where I’ve got to take this feedback. Like it’s that and these are simple, simple things, but we don’t connect them to getting us to equity and inclusion. And that’s where the problem lies.

 

Jessica Hurley  32:31

I’m just in a masterclass like y’all are in this moment. Okay, so very clear, for the most part on Dei. And I think there’s even a broader conversation to be had that we could be this entire podcast of, on a broader scale, I gave small details and life details. But on a broader scale, when there are major leaders that make massive mistakes, and they get in that uncomfortable position. It even sounds like a PR conversation of like, how, what do they do, because you see, so many people make their biggest mistakes, and not apologizing, and not taking responsibility, or blaming or playing victim to what was said done, or the mistake that was made. And so I think for those listening, that are scared of the hard conversations, or see the result of massive mistakes, outside of apologies, what would you what do you typically say people need to do or should consider when they are just in these really uncomfortable spaces? And I think I’m thinking I’m just thinking of examples of like, there is always bias. There is there’s always all of this. This is happening all the time

 

Amber  33:45

everywhere. Everywhere you look, this is happening. Yeah, you’re doing it to people. You’re biasing all the time. You’re looking at somebody you’re being like, Oh, she saw she’s pretty. Oh, he looks like he’s got a lot of money. You know, like you’re doing it all the time. Oh, she’s like, she might be good with kids. Like, we married people based on our biases. Like, Oh, her mom was nice. And she was nice. I think she might be a good cook. Maybe I should you know, we it’s happening. It’s happening. You’re living your life by it. The least you could do is know how to navigate, like how to have the conversations around the tough stuff. So like if I were to give a tool outside of apologies, apologies is really important. But if there were two things I could give people across the world, three, one would be apologies. The other two would be knowing how to give feedback. That’s one and also receive feedback. That’s two. Feedback loops are so critical. So critical. Because here’s the thing, if you don’t have the ability to receive feedback, you don’t even hear the apology. When I give you the apology, you don’t hear it because you can’t even take the feedback you mad, you’re in it right. And so like I want people to also build the resilience of having the ability to give and receive feedback. I make a very pointed effort to build relationships in my life with people who are willing to give me feedback who are willing to also take the chance and hear my feedback, even when it’s a little bumpy and it’s rough and I might not get it right all the time. Giving and Receiving Feedback are critical pieces. And here’s why. You don’t know that you’re doing it wrong until someone tells you. You don’t know how many YouTube videos do you start that open with? Hey, guys, and guys is not gender inclusive. But we will consider ourselves people who want to make sure that we are not leaning into the gender binary, guys is not gender inclusive. Sometimes people will say, Oh, well, I think guys as evolved, it’s for everybody. And I’ll say if I told you, I went on a date with four guys last week, what comes to mind for you? It’s not, it’s not it’s not gender inclusive, but we do it we Hey, guys all the time. And so like, if no one says to you, Hey, guys, is not inclusive. We work in a predominantly, you know, female run led operated organization, could we perhaps use some other terms, if you are not able to say that someone is not going to know they need to correct it. That’s a really simple example. But that’s, that’s the way it goes, I don’t know I’m doing a thing that is potentially offensive, disruptive, I don’t know I’m mispronouncing your name. If you don’t tell me, you’ve got to be willing to say that thing. That means you’ve got to be willing to be uncomfortable at least long enough to get it out your mouth. And I have to do the work of being willing to create the space for you to give me the feedback, which means sometimes I’ve got to ask, Hey, does that make sense? Hey, is? Is that clear? Do you have any feedback for me? Am I creating a space where you feel like you can share with me your concerns? Do you have any concerns for me? And guess what, every single time I might ask you, you may tell me? No, but because I asked you all the time when you have a concern, then you will say so and I have a concern I want to share with you. And I’ll go Okay, I’m ready to hear that. If we can just get that skill, if we could just get the skill of giving and receiving feedback. If we could just get that just think about how much better we could be. There’s so much ego involved, literally, literally, because I’ve decided I’m great. I’m the best. I’m the expert. Who are you to correct me? Wow. Yeah, it’s a thing. You

 

Jessica Hurley  37:21

taught me such a lesson and feedback, every bit of feedback that you have ever given me, has changed the way I changed me for the better in the world or in my business.

 

Amber  37:31

Thank you. So shake that.

 

Jessica Hurley  37:33

So if I had an issue with receiving your feedback, what an opportunity I would have missed.

 

Amber  37:38

I also think that I try to make sure that you can give me feedback back, yes. Where I’m like, okay, so what are your thoughts about this? I think you know, the most in this space, can you share with me what you would do? What’s the best approach? Hey, we wouldn’t have had a name for the podcast. Because I was like, I don’t know what to call it like, and you were like, it’s guilty privilege. That’s the name of it, right? Like, so I mean, we have to get to a place where we understand that most of us want power, I do. Power matters a lot. To me, power matters a lot to me, because I am a black woman. And I think that there are not enough black women in power making huge waves and impacts even though we have the skill set to do so. So I care a lot about power. Just imagine the amount of power you could have, if you just actually heard the feedback, if you invited it, if you got it if you considered it. Now some of its gonna be trash, throw it away. Okay, but if you at least get it, if you at least get it in, then you can decide and you can parse and you can look for themes. And you can go, Okay, I see a trend here, right? And you can respond appropriately. And if you are willing and brave enough and bold enough to give the feedback, like how many of these, you know, faux pas that we’ve seen, you know, black face this or, you know, why would you word this offensively that it are because people were not willing to give the feedback. I wasn’t willing to just speak up and say, so like, we got to get that skill. Like that’s the main thing like when I when I work with my clients, feedback, and apologies, top of the list, because those two things alone can get you really, really far down the line because and they’re also super simple. They’re not easy, but they’re super simple. They’re super simple. And so you just have to get that embedded and start practicing it and like practice it in your day to day life like folks the feedback you do, too. And guess what, if you mess it up, and you break it, I apologize.

 

Jessica Hurley  39:30

But we’re supposed to be perfect.

 

Amber  39:32

Yeah, I mean, how’s that working for you?

 

Jessica Hurley  39:34

It’s not right. It’s not working at all. It’s

 

Amber  39:39

there’s no such thing as perfect. My perfect and your perfect are different if I had to describe my heaven, and you describe yours, they’re going to be different. Correct. So where’s perfect? It’s impossible. That’s not a thing. Just like I always tell people inclusion isn’t everyone all the time? Yes, people think inclusion means like we all have everything that means everybody’s got to make space for everybody’s little unique, weird, unusual, distinct thing. Everyone should have luxury. No, it’s not gonna happen, right? Inclusion means that sometimes some folks are going to be centered in certain spaces. But that doesn’t mean you don’t belong there. That means it may be your role, there’s a little different. So we are centering queer people in the conversation, for example, and you happen to not be a queer person, this is your opportunity to show up as an ally. That’s your role. It doesn’t mean that you are not included. So we have to really get clear about like, what these things mean. Doesn’t mean that you are always going to be centered, considered imperfectly, comfort, comfortable, actually, you’re going to be uncomfortable a lot. I am uncomfortable a lot. I am the person that people turn to and say, Amber, can you please go tell the people that they broke it? Because I don’t really know how to say it. And I think they’re gonna get mad at me because they know I’m gonna say it.

 

Jessica Hurley  40:50

I was thinking about you. When lovey did the TED Talk about being the troublemaker in the beginning, she shows the picture of the cat and the cats like at the side eye, and she’s like, that is my job. My job is that when everyone makes the side eye, they’re like, lovey, can you go tell them? Can you please like, they should not have said that? And I’m like, that is Amber. That’s me.

 

Amber  41:07

It’s me. But guess what, you could take the burden off me if everybody would just just do it. Just give the feedback. I’m doing it. I’m role modeling to do it. This is what you say. But like, I teach it, because I want a world where, you know, we get past the idea that we have to be uncomfortable with, you know, people giving us something that ultimately can be helpful. Yeah, exactly.

 

Jessica Hurley  41:33

I gotta jump in on the you just brought up ally ship. And or not you and you have this incredible book allies and advocates. And you changed the way I saw all of these words. But allyship, an advocate advocacy, I can never say this word. Explain what you mean by that. And I will have some questions to follow. But she’s

 

Amber  41:57

sure. So people call me a lot about ally ship and advocacy. They’re also buzzwords, which is its own things. But to be really simple, the best way to do both of them is to start with you. Yes. With ally ship and advocacy both requires that you recognize what your privileges are. What do I have? What am I not even thinking twice about? Right? What are the things that are occurring in my life that are very, very natural for me that I’m not thinking about. So you know, just kind of go back to a couple examples I gave, I can work, walk to my local grocery store and talk to anybody in there. And I mean, they’re going to know what I’m saying, right? I speak the language of my community, that is a privilege. Okay, and so we can get clear about what our privileges are, I have hot, clean running water, you know, I can very easily stroll into my local CVS and pick up something a bandage and my skin tone, right? Whatever it is, if you can get clear about what your privileges are, then the next step is to step back and say, Okay, who around me may not be having that experience? What experience might they be having might what experience might the person who is not able to speak the language of the community having what experience might the person who is not able to have access to hot, clean running water having? What experience is the person having that is going into stores, and not able to find bandages in their skin tone or makeup in their skin tone, or hosiery and their skin tone? Right? Very easily, right? What experience might they be having, and if we don’t know, then we need to start to connect and build some empathy for that. If we can start to connect and build some empathy for that, that’s where we get the difference between ally ship and advocacy, when we start to get to ally ship. What that means is I look for ways to extend my privilege to you. Oh, wait, you’re having that experience. Okay, well, I don’t even have that at all. I have an abundance of this actually, how can I extend my privilege to you so that I can perhaps create an experience for you that feels more equitable? Right? Advocacy is asking us to look at the systems that are in the way. So instead of me thinking about the ways I can extend my privilege to you, what I’m looking at is like, well, what are the systems that are in the way of you having what I have? Because I easily can, blah, blah, blah, I can easily go just go hop on the Marta, I don’t have to think about anything but this person who’s a wheelchair user, are they even getting into the station? I don’t even see an elevator? What are we doing about that? Right? And so I think having the thoughtfulness around those pieces, so advocacy is more about the systems, what am I doing, that I am having an experience that it’s not disruptive for me at all, but someone else isn’t in that same privilege. And there’s a system in the way, there’s a process in the way there’s a resource in the way there’s something that maybe I have the power to change, or at least I can call to someone’s attention. And then ally ship is more about the person. What can I perhaps do to make sure that you have access to the same thing I do, oh, we don’t speak the same language, but you should be able to grocery shop just like I can’t. How can I make sure that we’re creating access so that you can do that? How do I make sure that you get the ability to experience equity in your life in the same way that I do, even though I’m getting a little bit of ease because I’ve got these privileges? Hey there, I hope you’re enjoying the episode and in fact If you are, you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living, I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate ally ship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together, you can reach out to me at Cobra co.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call and we will chat with you soon back to the show.

 

Jessica Hurley  45:32

Okay, I have a very serious question for the potential ally. And I’m sure you answer this question in the book. But from the very small situations to the very large ones, how you talked about like having an event at a company for you know, queer, an event centered around that, and someone not being queer. And that is an opportunity for them to be an ally. Right. So for the potential ally, what I see too far often and I know we’re all guilty of doing is when we go to be an ally, for a group or a situation that we are not a part of. We far too often how to explain this, but try to find a way to be have a connection, or dim our privilege, or something to feel welcome. And I feel like I’m not explaining this the right way. But this is to me an example or the equivalent of this is you do not need to be an ally for black and brown people and start the conversation or connection by saying like, my best friend is black.

 

Amber  46:28

Oh my God, you have to do to support the thing I do. Thank you. Do you know how many diversity practitioners because that’s what I consider myself a diversity equity inclusion practitioner, I am a practitioner of the work, okay. You do not have to be a person who is a practitioner of the work, who also happens to be queer, and then also happens to be non binary and also happens to be you do not have to adopt all of these things. Part of being an ally is being able to position yourself in the discomfort of building empathy. I don’t know, I don’t know what it’s like to be a trans woman, I have no idea. But I have relationships with folks who are trans women, I have intentionally done work in trans communities, I have intentionally tried to connect in ways that helped me to build the empathy necessary for me to say, Oh, I see where my privilege is in comparison to yours. And appropriate way for me to extend my support might be this does that sound right? That empathy makes you ask? You build the empathy, you get involved, you make the connection, you get real good at being willing to be uncomfortable, you get real good at somebody saying yeah, that you don’t really get it. Because listen, you are cisgender and there’s a lot of rice that you have, I don’t actually have and you don’t actually get it at all. And guess what people are gonna be frustrated, because they’re not gonna have to explain it, because they’re living it and it is painful and challenging and difficult. And I’m just using trans as an example. It could be anything, we have to be okay, not knowing everything being told that our privilege and someone else’s privileges are different. And that that creates a rub, and that we don’t know the answers. And we have to build the connection and the empathy to figure out what they are. Ally ship is labor. folks that run around someone I’m an ally, for the woman will walk community, it’s labor, are you working? Because if you’re not working, if you aren’t exhausted or tired, or confused, or frustrated, or perhaps sitting back and questioning, as you’re watching some of the things that happen around whatever it is that you are supporting. If you are not in that place, then you’re not doing it. Well. You’re not doing it right. Ally ship is work. It’s work, advocacy is work. It is work, I gotta be uncomfortable. I am pushing against a system I do not think is working for everyone. Have you tried to find a system? Think about that. We had a system where we had access to abortions for years. And that was gone. And there are people fighting that system. Like are you do you know what that feels like? Like, that’s labor. And so like, we have to also really get clear that like, this is uncomfortable work. It’s uncomfortable work. It’s uncomfortable all the time. If you’re not uncomfortable every week, you might not be doing the work. You might not be an ally or an advocate you might not you know, like, you gotta gotta own that. I always tell people I know I’m not doing a good job. If I haven’t apologized at least once a week. I’m a butcher, somebody’s name. I’m gonna miss gender somebody it’s gonna it’s gonna happen. I apologize for moving forward. I will. If I haven’t said that. At least that week. Something’s not right. Or I’m sick one or the other. Because it’s the work it’s labor.

 

Jessica Hurley  49:33

In 2020, I did a podcast episode that went viral. And it was called a letter to my wife herself. And it was because when all of this was happening, there were people contacting me in my network, mostly other white people asking me how do you feel about this and what are you doing about your son? Oh, my son is biracial. And there were so many things I wanted to address and there were also people like somebody all all these other things matter, shut the fuck Shut up, right. Everything else matters. And it was like, All things matter. And I was like, and what’s interesting is I didn’t know what ally ship meant during that time. But I was just like, I have a biracial son, I was engaged to a black man at the time, and the letter was about, and I still don’t have the tools and don’t know what to do. And so my job is to educate myself, because I will never and can never say that I have experienced what these people are experiencing. And so your job is to go educate yourself, and then ask for what you need to be doing. And if you don’t feel like you know what to do, then you have more work to do.

 

Amber  50:48

Yeah, and it’s and it’s, there’s a couple layers in there to that. And these are things that I think you do that you probably don’t really identify, well, it is educate yourself. But it’s also put yourself in appropriate relationship. Like when you build strong relationships, you get people, you and I right, we can have a conversation where I can say, I’m just not the appropriate approach here. reconsider this wording, you know, things like that, right. And you can say the same thing for me, right? Because we’re in relationship, we can do that. A lot of people miss that. They get clear, Oh, I gotta educate myself. And they’ll say that, Oh, I’m still learning, I’m educating myself, right. But I need you to also get to a point. And this is the second piece where you’re doing something. And I want you to understand that even when you start doing it, it’s still gonna be uncomfortable. Because the problem still here. So while you’re doing the thing that is being impactful, that is changing it that is having, you know, an opportunity to influence and shape and all of those things, it’s still gonna be ugly, it’s still gonna be uncomfortable, people are still going to challenge you, you’re still not going to like how it feels. But that is a part of the work because guess what, I’m experiencing this in an in an everyday kind of way. So like, I think those two pieces are part of it, too. And you do those you do those parts. But it’s I think it’s the thing that, to your point, sometimes might feel hard to put words to? Yes, yeah.

 

Jessica Hurley  52:01

I think there are so many people that took the lazy route, because they didn’t know what to do. And they didn’t know what to say without coming off as offensive. They didn’t know how and like. I’m gonna say, like, I felt, I felt like people were like, Okay, well, let me know. Let me go out there now and just make new friends. Yep. That for the 30 years, 4050 years of your life you had never went out and friends that didn’t look like you. Yep. And then you were like, Oh, shit, checking the box, I should go make some different looking friends. That’s it. And I was like, Oh, my God. Yeah, this is where we’re at. And then to hear you say the reverse that I think most people don’t pick up on is well, you know, we’re not saying I’m sorry, but I’m sorry that you have to put yourself in a space that makes you uncomfortable by having this conversation. However, that level of uncomfortability, if that’s a word, is how I feel all the time.

 

Amber  52:55

It’s my norm, it is my norm, the oppressed identities in this world, not just in this country, but in this world. It is their norm is the norm to be uncomfortable. It is the norm to be oppressed, it is the norm to have to push back it is the norm to have to figure out how to challenge it is the norm to be judged it is the norm to be criticized. And you are

 

Jessica Hurley  53:18

struggling to worry about your skin. Yes, this is the norm

 

Amber  53:20

for scary about me existing in this container. Correct. And you are concerned about saying the wrong thing. Okay, like, you know how to apologize, guess what, I may still be mad about it. But you have the tools, I need you to go forth and try I need you to go forth and ask for feedback. I need you to go forth and learn how to give feedback. I need you to be willing to be corrected, I need you to be willing to be uncomfortable, be willing to be wrong, all of it. All of it. I am wrong. I do this for work. I am wrong. I have been wrong. I have been corrected. I’ve been corrected harshly, right. And I have to be okay with that. Because here is the thing. Nobody knows what it’s like to live in your container. But you and we are trying to create a world where we’re giving equity to all the containers. If I’m gonna give equity to all the containers, I’m gonna fuck that up. Somewhere along the way, I’m gonna mess it up. I’m gonna say something wrong, I’m gonna offend somebody, I’m gonna frame it incorrectly. I’m gonna not be thoughtful about my impact. I am going to do it. And so are you. And here’s the thing. There’s a lot of folks, a lot of white folks who are unwilling to even lean into that. And if you’re not even willing to be a little bit uncomfortable, what maybe I mean, come on now. You just want to rattle off some definitions. That’s why we tell people I don’t care if you know definitions. Do you get the concept? I need you to get the concept. How are you bringing it to life in your life? How are you bringing apologies to life in your life? How are you bringing giving feedback when it’s tough and it’s hard to life in your life? How are you bringing receiving feedback to life in your life when it’s hard because when I tell you a thing, and you want to push back on me about it, are you actually receiving the feedback? Do you know how to do that? So it’s It’s, it’s again, all of the things that I teach are really simple and really practical and really accessible. And I like try to make sure you understand, you’re doing this from the moment you step out your house, and sometimes while you’re in your house. But also, I want you to realize that if you are not understanding that that’s the way it is, it is in your day to day at every moment in every step, you are not making an impact doing it at your job. You’re not, it’s not happening. The reason why y’all are struggling with talent pipeline is because you think that only place the DEI belongs in your job. So the people is trying to get in the job can get in because it’s not happening outside of the job. So like there’s there’s so is so much nuance, there’s so many layers, but again, this is simple stuff. The biggest obstacle is I don’t want to be uncomfortable. I don’t want to be wrong. I don’t be incorrect. I want to be corrected publicly. I don’t want to be embarrassed, I don’t want to get dragged, I don’t be shamed. I don’t want to be, what’s the word canceled. And I’m like, folks don’t get canceled. And let’s say double down and you do some stupid, you need to back up and be like, Why do some stupid and apologize most people want to be like, but also, like I said, now you’re getting dragged. And you know what I’m saying. So like, it’s, it’s the unwillingness to be okay, with correction and discomfort. And the unwillingness to create the kinds of relationships in your life, that make sure that you get that, like the people who are close to me, chin check me regularly, I am familiar with a bruised chin. Because I know it’s the only way I’m gonna get better. And I want people in my life that have that. And I try to teach people the resilience, of being able to take it as well as give it as well as know how to apologize when you plug it up, because you’re gonna do it.

 

Jessica Hurley  56:38

I have to wrap us here. And I can’t do my job on this podcast. Unless I’m constantly willing to throw myself under the bus, I want to go back to what you just said about one of the biggest problems we have is that people don’t want to be canceled. They don’t want to feel shame. They don’t want to feel embarrassed, they don’t want to be corrected, they don’t want to feel stupid, they don’t want to feel offensive, they don’t want to say the wrong thing to the wrong thing. They want to be perfect. All of the things I am guilty of this. And so I’m going to use myself as an example. This has been the year where I have been checked a lot for why I do what I do. And I get the unique opportunity of putting power behind marginalized voices, underrepresented voices, primarily black and brown women. I help those women amplify their voices through the power of podcasting, talk shows video conversations. Yep. And I listen, and I eat it up. And then I find ways to blow it up in a way that I think that other audiences will be transformed by it. Yep. And I thought I was just doing work I loved. And this was I am I love this. Like To be clear, because these are the women that I learn. I feel like I get paid to learn from the most incredible women I have ever met. Absolutely. But this was the first time that people really, because it’s because I’m getting visibility. So now there are questions. And this was the first time where I was like, what you were like, Hey, why do you only work with black women? And hey, we wanted to partner with you. But someone in the organization said you’re not black. So what are you doing? Yeah, why are you helping, like, so that’s against our brand, because we help them and you serve them. But that’s not you? And I was like, holy shit. Yeah. And so now it has become and so I’m asking this as a as a question. And then for someone listening. How can I continue and I love that you brought this up about I’m just in an uncomfortable space right now that you have been in your entire life, that many people have been in them their entire life? How do I continue to stand in my ally ship? Because this is the place where people like me get uncomfortable? Where we go, Wait a minute, well, maybe I shouldn’t be an ally, maybe I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. Maybe. And I know, I can’t speak to those experiences. I know that I can’t. But I know that I love these women. I know that I love their stories, right? I know that their voices should be heard. And I know that part matters to me. But when people ask those questions, and I don’t have an answer, I’m like, oh, fuck, maybe I don’t maybe I’m not the person to do this.

 

Amber  59:18

I think you do it anyway. I think. All right. So a couple things. I think one we are preoccupied with having an explicit explanation for why we do the things that we do. A lot of us don’t know why some of the things we do we do because we’re interested and we like it which could very well be the case for why you are where you are here. But in terms of what you should continue to do. If that is true. If it is true that you love it and you value it and you think it’s worth people having the opportunity and amplifying black and brown voices, particularly black and black and brown women’s voices matters to you. You should continue to do the work. You should also be prepared to continue to be questioned and I I think that’s the part that gets tough. Like, I am always questioned, I am always questioned as far as my professionalism as far as my intellect as far as, you know, lots of just really random arbitrary things because I’m a black woman walking around in a black woman’s container.

 

Jessica Hurley  1:00:16

The phrase enduring skepticism, skepticism was like, Holy shit, you’ve got to

 

Amber  1:00:21

endure the skepticism, you have to and here’s and I want to add this, I’m gonna, and I’m gonna add another layer here. But here’s the thing, the endurance of skepticism is not just for white folks, right? In this space, it’s the thing that I think you would need to do here. You need to endure the fact that people are gonna look at you and be like, Oh, love you, like, are you gonna be black folks? You got all these black people paying you out of money to help them was I’m confused, right? Okay. You have to endure that. And you have to get really comfortable with the fact that that is going to be ongoing, it’s not going to stop, it’s unlikely it will end in your lifetime. And in fact, I would probably do a little bit of work to make sure that I could explain why it is so important that I continue to endure in that space. I don’t think you should stop. I do think you should be clear enough to be able to explain it. But I also want to say that enduring skeptic, skepticism is not something that happens just to white folks, because, you know, I think back to 2020, I had a really good friend that I, he used to ride his bike, we were staying together at the time used to ride his bike up to the local grocery store to get groceries, just you know, whatever. He went one time he forgot his, his wallet. He gets there. He’s in the little self checkout. He’s, you know, packing his stuff up. He goes to pay and he’s like, oh, shoot, right? He’s got an iPhone, they don’t have Apple Pay. He’s like, Okay, let me just put everything back as he’s in the process of putting things back. What happens is this small little white woman walks up to him, by the way, he’s like, a six foot five 200 And, you know, 20 pound black man, very muscular, handsome, dark skin guy. And this little tiny little white woman, you know, probably 120 pounds wet, you know, walks up to him and goes, Hey, is everything okay? And he immediately assumes you work there. And so he’s like, oh, you know, I realize I forgot my wallet. So I need to cancel the transaction. And she goes, Oh, no, well, maybe they have like Apple Pay. And he’s like, Oh, no, it doesn’t look like they have that. And at this point, he realizes she doesn’t work there. She’s just trying to help, right? And so he’s like, Oh, no, it’s fine. I’ll just put everything back. It’s not a big deal. And she’s like, well, it’s like 12 bucks, because again, he’s on his bike. So he doesn’t have that much. Right. And so he’s like, she’s like, it’s like, 12 bucks. It’s no problem. I’ll pay for it for you. I mean, just enjoy the rest of your day. And he freaks like, he’s like, No, it’s okay. You don’t have to do that. Like, you know, I’m good. You know, because in his mind, I am a big black man. This is post George Floyd, I have a lot of you no reservation around white people leaning in to help me right. You know, I’ve not had the experience of white people being helpful to me. Now all of a sudden, this man has been murdered very publicly, and all y’all are coming out the woodworks trying to help. Weird, right? Black folks also got to endure some skepticism, we also have to get okay with the idea that some times, the white woman that has a podcast company that supports black and brown women is actually making a meaningful impact. And that’s okay, we’re still going to question it. But we have to endure the skepticism to find out where the validity is, right? And so it’s there’s two sides to that, and any and that’s the thing that happens across all of these conversations, people listening

 

Jessica Hurley  1:03:23

to you. And I’m thinking the validity is where one of the biggest issues because we want the ally, Shelley, and we want the connection, we want to bridge the gap. But both parties are like, hmm.

 

Amber  1:03:35

And here’s what everybody else saying that they want to help. Exactly. And once you’re valid for me, that doesn’t mean you’re valid, right? You’re valid for me. Now, you’ve got to become valid for the next person and the person after them. And occasionally, you get lucky and you get a patch a friend. And they’re like, Oh, you were valid for her. So we’re cool, right? But like, there is there is going to be the skepticism. When I tell people that this work is labor surviving skepticism is part of the labor. I am constantly surviving skepticism. I can’t tell you how many people hesitate to give me a mic. I am never not good on camera. I’m never not good with a mic in my mic all the time. I can’t tell you how many people hesitate. And they hesitate because of whatever that bias thing is in their brain that makes them go you know, I’ll see what people look like or on TV or what am I like or I don’t see that. So that the endurance of skepticism is part of the labor you are in the process of having to survive that labor, you will have to survive it in an ongoing way. That’s a real thing.

 

Jessica Hurley  1:04:37

This was so good. This was so good. Oh my god, if this didn’t change the way like my mind is already turning like I’m like they’re all of these words I thought of wrong. All of these things I was not clear on and this already changes the way that I show up in the world and it also makes me You want to correct a lot of things that I see because I’m like this word is being used. So vaguely these words are being used so vaguely and incorrectly in the masses. Oh, yeah. Like I’m like, oh, so

 

1:05:11

we jump for a while? Yeah.

 

Jessica Hurley  1:05:13

I’m doing this wrong. You have people to help. Oh, yeah, for sure. Oh my god. Okay, so, Amber, thank you. You’re welcome. Thank you for having this honest conversation. I think this was needed for a lot of people. I’m glad you guys can be a part of it. And please, please, we showed her books. There’ll be down in the show notes. But please tell them where they can learn more about you. Listen more of your podcast, follow you stalk you and even work with you.

 

Amber  1:05:39

Yeah, absolutely. So if you want to follow me on the socials, I am at BAM Cobra on almost all of the things on LinkedIn under my name Amber coverall. You can also follow the podcast guilty privilege anywhere podcasts are pod cast it available. All right. And I do have a couple books. They’re available anywhere you buy books. So if that’s Amazon, or Barnes and Noble, or even your local independent bookstore, if it’s not in the store, you can definitely request it and still order it there as well.

 

Jessica Hurley  1:06:04

I have to wrap with this. Because I was so I was so into this conversation. You were just truly one of my favorite people know, like, and I didn’t get to say this before as a last question. You live, breathe and walk. Everything that you teach.

 

Amber  1:06:18

I try my best. I get it wrong. You do you? Do? You admit it? I do.

 

Jessica Hurley  1:06:24

And you are you taught me through your examples? What ally ship me? Thank you, because you have showed up as an ally for me and my journey several times, like I have never met someone so willing to hand off refer and, and just offer assistance. Yeah. And a helping hand and everything that I do. So you are everything that you say you are. And I have to say that because I need my audience to hear that one. Thank you you are. And two, I have to wrap with I need you to tell them what Rich and real life means to you. Oh,

 

Amber  1:06:59

rich and real life means power. To me. People get funny about power people get real funny when a black woman says power. But that’s what I want. I would like more power, please. I forgot to say this. You can also go to Africa ball.com and learn whatever you’d like to learn about me. But power is important to me. Particularly because I think there are a lot of people who have it that are not using it in ways to make the kinds of impacts that I think power really can. And so I am on a mission to get the kind of power that will make the impact that we all deserve. That especially people that look like me deserve. And so when I think about what rich in real life looks like to me, it’s not the money the money is I need it. I need some money and the money is important, but it is really about the kind of influence and connection and power and impact that I can make. That’s what reaching real life means to me.

 

Jessica Hurley  1:07:49

A woman saying that she is okay. Our Hey, do y’all hear me? Please pass. More please. More please. We decided we’re not gonna say more. Please, any more. Power. Thank you. Thank you, Amber. Thank you.

 

Amber  1:08:05

Thank you