SUMMARY KEYWORDS

detroit, feel, life, place, remember, trust, move, money, connected, debrief, black, people, organization, knew, person, decisions, burnt, pay, happen, experience

SPEAKERS

Amber Cabral, Amanda Miller Littlejohn

 

Amber Cabral  00:00

Whatever, wherever your gut happens. Some people’s gut is a chest feeling. Some people’s gut is literally their gut. You know, other people just get like a, you know, something ran across their brain or whatever, a tingle of some kind. I There is nothing more valuable to my literal existence than my gut instinct. Privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes, where you live, the places you frequent, your network capital and even how you spend your money. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege. Welcome back to guilty privilege. So today’s episode is a little bit different. I am actually in the position of having a conversation with someone that you met last season. Her name is Amanda Miller Littlejohn. She was a guest last season, and I interviewed her about her magic and the way she shows up for me as a coach. But in this episode, you are going to get to listen to her interview me. So if you’ve ever wondered a little bit more about what’s behind me as a woman and how I came to be who I am today, this is probably the episode that’s gonna give you the nuggets you’ve been searching for. Let’s jump in.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  01:25

Hey Amber, hey girl. So we’re here for an episode of guilty privilege, and I’m back in my rightful spot. The

 

01:39

question lady and I thought we could start off with just how we met. So why don’t you tell your viewers your recollection of us meeting, and then I want to share a little story that you may not be aware of. Oh, there’s a story I don’t know. It’s an interior story you know me, okay, all right, so Well, I mean, we met at a conference, like in passing, like your husband used to work at Walmart. Walmart had sent me to this conference. Your husband was also there, and I stepped into an event. And honestly, I had come across you online before that, and I stepped into an event and heard you speak on a panel, and was like, I don’t know who these little people are, but her, I need to be in touch with. And I knew that your last name and his last name were similar because we worked together. So I approached him and was like, Who is that? Is she your sister? Because I had no idea he was married. And with the reason I didn’t, it wasn’t like, you know, first of all, I don’t check for wedding rings, so forgive me, he doesn’t really wear, he doesn’t wear, okay. So, yeah, okay. So that makes me feel better, but I assumed he wasn’t, because I knew he was living in Arkansas alone. And so I was like, of course, it’s probably his sister or his cousin or something. And he’s like, yeah, that’s my wife. And I was like, Oh, okay. And so at that point, I took a more concerted interest in following you, and I just felt like you gave so many good nuggets. I feel like you gave me a lot of information, just and it was free. You just out on it and just being like, Hey, you wanna package your genius. Here you go. Here’s all the things. And I was like, I need this stuff, so I was collecting it. So the funny thing about that day that we met. And I think I’ve shared this with you, so now I’m really remembering like the day, yeah, that was May 2015 Oh, you, you. My father had passed away earlier in the spring, and my grandmother was like, let’s wait until his birthday to do like a Sarah, a service of some sort. And so Mark and I had come to Nashville for the service. I was a mess, yes, because, you know, imagine, like someone passes away, right there processors of time you have to, like, wait to do the grading. It was awful. And so I remember I was in the hotel, just like crying in a mess. And then we came down, and I literally was just not really there, right? And I thought I bombed. And the fact that, you know, that’s how I guess, you know, you’re operating in your gift because the fact that whatever I showed you in that moment, I was like, Oh, I have to check in. Like, made me stick, because everybody else on the panel was very unseasoned and, like, uninteresting, but you had, like, really thoughtful, because you were mop water, wasn’t it? Yes, take it back, right? So I was like, Okay. And I remember looking and being like, oh, no, I’ve seen her. And then it just kind of went from there, and then at some point, I just reached out to you, like, Hey, I love your stuff, right? And I was doing the academy, yes, I did a small like, was it two days? Was it a day workshop or something? It was like, an hour call or something, and you built out, like, this whole plan for you always have a great worksheet. So I was like, worksheet.

 

Amber Cabral  05:00

I still have these worksheets, and so we did that I was supposed to get a 30 minute follow up call. I never took advantage of it, because I just didn’t feel like I knew what that call was supposed to be. Then fast forward, you know, I’m working at Walmart. I’m like, Okay, I’m leaving Walmart. I’m thinking, I’m going to another company. But, like it was just a very bumpy, difficult time. I was leaving Arkansas. My life was changing in multiple ways, and I was going to be in DC, and I happened to reach out to you and say, you know, listen, I would love to join your newest cohort of packager genius. I’m not sure that I can pay the fee right now, but if you ever consider scholarshipping, I would love to know what the process is to apply. And you reached out to me literally on a day that I was in DC, and I’m like, Well, ironically, I’m in DC. And so we met at a coffee shop. We ended up shooting some content that day too, didn’t we? We like, I feel like we, we we did a few things, we did some things. And so what

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  06:04

was your first impression in person? I mean, I know you’d seen the conference, but like we had never spent time. Oh,

 

Amber Cabral  06:09

I just knew you loved coffee, girl, because you were real serious about where we were meeting. Yes, la cologne. La cologne. Okay, yes, I remember because I didn’t know there was more than one, and I went to the wrong one first. And so I had to find my way to the right one. This is obviously before I had lived in DC, which happened later. And then, man, my first impression, honestly, I just remember feeling like I am so glad that this woman is willing to help me. You know what I’m saying? Like, I don’t think I was at the place where, like, I was assessing you in that way. I think I had reverence for what I had seen already, and was just like, Okay, I want to be able to tap into that. And, you know, like, like, take advantage of the value, but not enough. Take advantage, right? But you know what I mean, like, I wanted to make sure that I was being honorable with the fact that you were sharing your time with me.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  07:01

So here’s, here’s what I remember, and this is, oh, wow, I want to pick it up. Okay,

 

Amber Cabral  07:05

let’s please, hello, strong personality, your let’s open it. I flipped my tables and forgot. Okay, so

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  07:14

you were in DC. It was very random, and it felt very like, oh, okay, well, let’s get together in person, in the flesh. And so we met at La cologne off 14th street, and I remember when you got there, you were very

 

Amber Cabral  07:29

serious. Yes, you’re very serious. You were very this is my defense mechanism.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  07:33

You were very formal, almost. You were respectful, like I’m thank you for meeting with me. Thank you for taking time. You were just very kind of buttoned up in, like, serious. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I was very impressed, like, okay, right, let’s do this. And I remember you pulled out this red notebook. I still got that red notebook. And it was like, it’s over. So it was an oversized notebook, and it was blank pages, and it was filled with all of these ideas and charts and just beating myself first. No, I’m like, low key.

 

Amber Cabral  08:13

No, are you not? I know you were drooling on the inside the

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  08:17

notebook and the pins and the ideas and the frameworks. So I was trying to play it cool. Like, okay, she’s real, real cool. Okay. She’s like, me, we on the same wavelength. I’m like, okay, yeah, maybe we can work together, but maybe, maybe we can be friends, maybe. And then I remember you said to me, I’ve never told you this. You said to me, you’re like, Yeah, we were talking about different assessments you had taken. You told me about Hogan, yes, and you were like, Yeah, you know, I scored extremely low on trust. And I don’t trust anybody. I don’t I don’t trust new people. Yeah, I don’t trust people. And I don’t know what it was that you said specifically, but the way I interpreted that was, this is a business. Oh, wow, interaction, and I have no room for personal exchange with you.

 

Amber Cabral  09:10

Yeah, I was woken from that. Well, I

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  09:12

remember though I was just like, because our brains were like, dancing over that coffee, like the neurons were connected. Sure, I

 

Amber Cabral  09:21

didn’t have coffee. I had some, yeah,

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  09:23

I mean, I don’t need it. It wasn’t the coffee. You know, me, I can drink some coffee and go to sleep, but we just had this, like, intellectual chemistry. And then you mentioned the whole trust thing, and I was like, Oh, okay. And you had said something in the future about, like, I don’t know something about friends, and I don’t want friends. I don’t know friends. But then you kept, like, hanging around, yeah,

 

Amber Cabral  09:49

I think if I go back and play that back, I mean, you know this now, like, you know the stories, but like, it was, I was really, really wounded. Like, I love. Walmart in some really, really, really, really shady circumstances, like, my actual departure wasn’t shady, you know, like, I knew it was happening. I had asked, like, Hey, I know layoffs are coming, so, right, keep me in mind, right? Because I just knew that my time had come to a close and I was ready to get out of Arkansas. But I gone, you know, I had had a really, really, just incredibly disappointing breakup. I had a series I had gotten, you know, I was sexually assaulted shortly after that, I I had some real trust revelations in Arkansas, like it was the first place that I lived. I think people have this experience in college, but I didn’t have this experience, probably because I didn’t really go away to school. But like, you know, you have these friends, and then you leaving it it’s over, like it’s gone, and like, that was so jarring for me, for the people that I felt very connected to, to just be like, okay, she’s gone. And it’s not like, I didn’t get fired, I didn’t do anything. I wasn’t, you know, like, Oh, get out of here. You know, it wasn’t a terrible situation in that sense. So like, I was just not happy in Arkansas. I’m ready to go. And it was just not the right place for me. And obviously, I was going through a breakup, so I was hurt. But like, for these friendships to happen, to have unfolded, and actually, with the Hogan assessment, the woman who did my first so you have to get debriefed. It’s a pretty complicated assessment. It’s still one I enjoy a lot. And the woman who debriefed me the first time made a point to zoom in on that like, you know, trust, like you have an issue with trust. This is going to hold you back as a leader. And so probably when I mentioned it to you, I was on the backside of this culmination of really tough events, and like, tying them to this woman telling me, like, this thing is what’s wrong with you. And so I me being who I am, my thought process was more than likely, let me tell her this, so that she doesn’t pick up on it and think that it’s something I don’t know. Or like, you know what? I mean, it was like, almost, like a, like, eight mile situation, like I’m talking about before you talk about me, and so, um, yeah, it was definitely not, I’m not interested in being your friend. Like, I thought you were amazing. I was like, Oh, this lady, I’m clear, she probably not going to be my friend.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  12:15

Funny, yes, yes. I think at the time I was in a I was wounded too, yeah. And, I mean, I had some like, you know, business partnerships and friendships that went really left, right? And so for me, when it comes to, like, connecting with other women or men, right, just on a platonic level, you know, my like, Vibranium is intellectual chemistry. Like, if you can capture my intellectual interest, right? You got me. Like, no way, exactly. I ain’t going nowhere, right? And so I think that was, like, when we had that moment at the coffee shop. I’m like, Oh, my God, this woman is amazing. And then you’re like, oh, but also I don’t trust so, just, just so, you know. But anyway, what do you think holds your interest in people? Like, when I think about the common threads among the people that have stuck around me for the longest time, they’re so different, right? Like, so my friends are all very, very different, but that thing that connects us is that kind of, it’s, it’s more than intellect. It’s almost a spiritual chemistry too. It’s like a spiritual intellectual chemistry. So what is it that draws you to people and kind of makes you want to hold on to them? Authenticity,

 

Amber Cabral  13:40

I don’t have a fake bone in my body. I don’t want to be fake. I don’t, I don’t like the huh. I want to. I don’t do that. I don’t engage with people in that way. And so if I think about a thread that runs through the relationships I have, I have to be able to be comfortable being very honest with you, and I have to trust that you’re willing to do that back to me. And I have to be careful about that, because I do have a very I’m I’m clear about my perspectives. I can communicate them well, and sometimes I can make people shrink. So I do make a pointed effort to invite people to share. If I don’t get anything back, if it doesn’t feel like there’s a deliberate and intentional Okay, I want to connect back. I want to reveal myself, so to speak. You know, you don’t tell me your deepest, darkest secret. If you do, it’s okay. But you know, I also I really would like to know in my friendships that we can keep it real with each other. I want spaces where this is so interesting, it just popped into my brain this way. But I want spaces where but I want spaces where I can trust the feedback you give me. Because I think when I look back over my life, some of the most hurtful things that have happened to me have been really I could not trust the feedback that I was getting, even like that woman I just told you that did the debrief for me. I could not trust her. And so here I am. In this situation where she’s debriefing me, but she is harping on a thing that when I got a debrief later, because I just took my scores to someone else who knew how to debrief them, explained it in a way that was very different. Yes, I do have a low trust score, but you know that, in conjunction with these other things, actually, this is how you adjust for that. And so, yeah, I think I really need the authenticity, and I need to feel like I can trust if you’re like, hey, you have lipstick on your teeth, or that was, you did a great job, right? I can know that that’s a reliable source

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  15:32

of actually value their feedback, right? Like, I

 

Amber Cabral  15:36

care what you say, and if you tell me something’s wrong, I’m gonna take it with the same level of concern, like, Okay, wait, what is it? What needs to be different, you know what I mean? Yeah, on

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  15:45

a similar note, okay, your powers of attraction? Yeah, I’m

 

Amber Cabral  15:54

tear I’m very magnetic,

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  15:55

but not you. Yes, you’re magnetic, but you’re magnetic. Of, like, really good energy. Like, people I want to be around, you know, I don’t want to be around you’re like, Honey, and they just come to you. So, like, how, what is it that makes you, in your opinion, so sticky and just, not just magnetic, yeah, but sticky, because it’s hard to, like, hold on to people and maintain relationships and cultivate intent, and you’re really good at that, I think, yeah, as busy as you are,

 

Amber Cabral  16:35

yeah, that’s a good question. Um, I don’t know. I haven’t asked people, but if I were to take a guess, first of all, I think people are attracting me because I’m interesting. Like, I think, I think, I think I also present interesting. I got this funky haircut, like, I, you know, I have I dress, you know, you know, relatively put together. I think I carry a certain energy, just in general, that people might be like, Oh, that’s interesting, you know, but so I think that’s probably part of it, but I also think I add a lot of value to the relationships I’m in, okay, like going back to that authenticity, I practice what I preach. So I believe in feedback. I don’t always want it, but I’m always interested in what someone has to share, and I always want to have a space where I can share back. And so I think one of the ways that I do cultivate connection is I try to give people the information that maybe other people haven’t shared with them. So I’m going to tell you if I think that your prices are too low, where everybody else is going to be like, Thanks girl, right. And so I’m also gonna let you know if I feel like there are some opportunities for you to improve, if I have some recommendations that could, you know, put you in a better position in whatever way. And I think that while people could easily be put off by that, the people that I think that are sticky, have gotten to a place where they value it, where they’re like, Okay, I know she gonna say something, but I’m gonna be able to use it, so deal with it. And I’m also not like, I don’t tear people down. So I’m not like, in a position, you know, where I’m just like, you know, you need to be better at blah, blah, blah. Like, I don’t approach it, yeah, I try to be very loving and very caring and like, I take advantage of, like, you know, the places I can get very intimate with people that you know. I know them in ways that are personal. I will lean into that and then share the feedback in that space. So, like, you’re in a loving space before, I’m just like, okay, these three things here we see, yeah,

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  18:33

we tie these up,

 

Amber Cabral  18:36

right? So I am, yeah. I think that it could be that, if I were to guess about why people stick around, I think it’s like, I’m gonna get value from her. I hear that a lot. I hear, you know, you taught me that, what do people thank you for, and I don’t even necessarily know when I’m doing it, but like, if I like you and I like your energy, and I feel good around you, and I can see something that you could do that would improve or shape or impact, you know, I’m gonna share it. And I think people like having someone in their lives that they can rely on. You

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  19:12

know what it is, what I know, you don’t desire children. You are mama, and you really I was just about

 

Amber Cabral  19:19

to say to you, just calls me mom. No, but I was just about to say to you, what you

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  19:23

another thing that I don’t know if people thank you for, or I have ever thanked you for, but you take care of people. Oh, absolutely. And in so many ways, like you, you take care. You look out. Are you good? Have you eaten? Did you do we? Do you have the sugar in the raw and the horizon, have you have that you made for your coffee? Right? You know, just very and that’s very maternal, like, that’s what mom it’s funny, because

 

Amber Cabral  19:49

I don’t think most people, unless they are close to me, would think of me as maternal for lots of reasons, but I definitely think that, like, there are people in my life that see me as. Very loving and nurturing and supportive and, like, caretaking and protective. Yes, I’m very protective.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  20:07

That’s a very that’s a mama

 

Amber Cabral  20:11

that’s very true. I’m super protective of my friends. Like, decisions for you. Like, be like, Yeah, usually you won’t do that, because you know what, this goes this way. This is what we gonna have to get into, you know, like, I, yeah, I’m super protective of people I care about.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  20:25

I was gonna ask you if you could share a couple of just tips for those of us who want to get better at attracting good people and good energy. Because, I mean, you, you’re just out here collecting.

 

Amber Cabral  20:40

I mean, we’ve had a refining process. So then, what? A few eggs? Yeah, we’ve had a few eggs. Um, if I were to make a couple major recommendations like that, I think you know. And unfortunately, sometimes the major recommendations can sound a little cliche. Please, trust your gut. It, you know, whatever, wherever your gut happens. Some people’s gut is a chest feeling. Some people’s gut is literally their gut, you know, other people just get like a, you know, something ran across their brain, or whatever, a tingle of some kind. I There is nothing more valuable to my literal existence than my gut instinct, and there are times I have deliberately done things that were counter to my gut instinct, and knew I was doing it, but I was able to protect myself like, Okay, I’m gonna take this chance because I want to make sure.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  21:39

Can you give us an example, or is that too?

 

Amber Cabral  21:41

Um, let me think of one. Yeah, I can give you an example. It’s a little bit, you know, I will speak in generalities to be courteous. I don’t owe this person in any courtesy, but I think one of the ways you retain trust is by holding it so I will be responsible. I had a friend, former friend. That former friend got engaged. I always felt like something was off with that fiance. It was, you know, it was almost like a this was my friend, but this person brought some things out of my friend that were just things I had not seen before, and they wanted to be close to me in the way that my friend was. And, you know, you can’t do that, right? You know what I mean? Like, I’m not close to your husband the way that I’m close to you. Like, do I know him? Can I call him if I need to, if I’m in DC and I need some help, I could probably be like, hey, Amanda, about to call mark, you know, like, we have a, you know, a, you know, rapport, yeah, but, like, That’s not like you and I, right? And he wanted that kind of connection with me that I had with, you know, his partner. And I was suspicious. I went against it. I didn’t expect it to play out quite as badly as it did, but I had a feeling at some point it would come to a head, and I tried to protect myself from that by being very strategic about how I engaged with them. And in this case, ultimately, it worked out exactly where it needed to. I i withheld some steps that I would have otherwise taken that could have cost me a lot of money. I just was like, Yeah, I’m gonna move a little bit more cautiously in this space and be very careful about the way I connect here. I didn’t shut it down, even though my gut was like, because I cared about my friend. But ultimately, the demise of our friendship, I think, had a lot to do with that fiance. I Alrighty,

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  23:41

then, yeah. So moving on. We’ve touched on a bit of this concept a bit, and I want to dive into it because it is one of the things that I’ve noticed the most about you, and it is your sense of abundance, like you always say, you know you keep an open hand, always tell us more about like, how you became such an abundant thinker, and how you became just so generous and always aware that like there is more coming.

 

Amber Cabral  24:31

I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode, and if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations, to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called allies and advocates, and this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful ally. It has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there, both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say. More about that now say more about that is more about helping you to speak up, to push back, to challenge, to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult. And in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things, you can go pick up those books, anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there. Back to the episode. Yeah, I am very generous. I always remind people that, like, generosity is still earned, though it’s not like, I think sometimes people think generous means that, like, you know, I’m just out here handing out candy in the streets, you know, I’m like, Well, no, I’m generous. But like, it is, it is as a product of, like, the relationships I have, and you know how we’re how I’m connected to people, and I I’m generous on purpose I am that is connected to how I see my ability to move like I don’t, I cannot. I don’t want to walk through life like this. I want. I need to walk through life with an open hand. I have to trust that what is removed from my removed from my, you know, my possessions will be added back two or 10 fold, like I just cannot operate in a world where, like, I will be stripped to nothing. It just isn’t nothing I can conceptually grasp. And I think that part of that, part of what probably contributes to just the mindset of, I believe I can have whatever I want. Is, I’ve watched it happen enough, you know what? I mean, like, I, you know, just even when I was young, like I wanted to go to college, there’s no reason I should have thought that I could have gone to college given what my circumstances were like I was, you know, I grew up in a really, you know, relatively poor, you know, single parent home. I mean, I knew who my father was, obviously, but like, my mother was, you know, my primary caretaker. I ultimately ended up adopting my sister later, you know, in life. So like, as she as, you know, time went on, but like when I was going to college, I had to, I didn’t have a car, I had to take a bus in Detroit, you know, it’s the Motor City. It’s not the public transit city, right? So getting around my bus was more than an ocean, you know? So it was, there was no reason for me to stick with that, but I just believed what I want, what degrees give you, which is, like a nice job at that time, that’s my morning. I want. I want a nice job. I want a job. I like, I’ve got a call center job right now because I had a full time job too, but it wasn’t what I wanted to be doing. And of course, you know, when I was young, the answer to getting a better job was you have to have a degree. So I was like, well, we gonna go to school. Then we might not go to U of M. We might not be able to go to Michigan State, but we can get on downtown Detroit and go to Wayne State, and their psychology program is great. So let’s do that. And so I did. And I mean, the results, you know, just even with that, like, I realized that if I were making decisions and sticking to them, the outputs were great. Opportunities would present themselves my schedule. I you know, this was, this blows my mind, even to just go back and think about but like my entire again, I didn’t have a car my entire first two years of college. I wasn’t driving. My schedule aligned perfectly for me to be able to go down, go to school, catch a bus back and get to work and work nights on time. Wow. And you know, college schedules aren’t like that. It’s like you’ve got to take these four classes. You’ve got to take them by the time it’s your third year. You blah, you know, there’s all these rules, and usually you end up with at least one random class that’s like, nobody y’all do this on a Saturday morning or whatever. You know, it aligned perfectly so that I could still do that. And so I just think that you, I think by being intentional about what you want life to make available to you, and moving in a way that creates the space it has no choice but to come. I have made room. This is your parking spot, so I’m going to do all the things around it for it to arrive, and therefore, when it does arrive, I am able to welcome it. And guess what? Sometimes things have arrived, and I’ve been like, no, not this. And I have had to, you know, change direction and recreate. So I think I’ve seen it. I think I’ve seen it even before I really understood what was happening. I think I saw it unfold in some ways, like that. And then when I left Walmart and I was hurt child, like I said, it was a tough time. I moved in with my godparents, and I had a ton of companies after me. Because, you know, you work at a big company, you’re kind of, like, in this pool. And so people like company names, they know. So if you work at a big brand, they’re like, Oh, you worked at big brand, you know, let’s see, you know, it’s kind of like a, you know, it’s a nice boost. And so I wasn’t, you know, I was an interview process for several well known companies. And I would go downstairs after I got my little interview scheduled, and I’d be like, Oh my gosh, Google reached out to me. Let me tell you about the job. Oh, I would have to move, and this is where I would be. And I wasn’t really excited about them, but I was excited about making money again. And every single time my godday, I would say I. So do you want that? And I will go I want to not sleep on your floor. So and so I got to the point where he had asked me what I wanted. So many times he literally would say to me, like, you are in a position right now where you don’t have to pay to live. They fed me. I had to buy my clothes. I already had a car. I had to pay my car note. But it’s not like I left, you know, Walmart, like, with no money. I had some income, but I was just undecided about where to live. I wasn’t sure what direction to move in, you know, there was just a lot to think about. And I thought I was gonna land another job. So he had said to me, you are in a position right now where you don’t have to pay for anything, so figure out what you want to do. And I was like, want. And I have been making decisions about what I wanted, but I was doing it in the framework of what I have been told to want, right? I have been told I want a good job. So that’s why to college to get the thing. I have been told that I needed to earn money, so that is why I, you know, like, followed these series of steps, and this was the first time where it was like, you don’t have a boundary. What do you want? And I was like, I don’t know. I have no idea. And it came to me in the middle of an interview with Google. I asked the question in the middle of the interview, I said, you know, hey, does this position have an opportunity for development, you know, outside of the company, you know, is there, you know, a budget for learning and development in terms of conferences or programs so that I can add value to the organization? And the answer was essentially no, like, this position won’t offer that. And I was like, I’m not taking a job that does that. I don’t want that. And so I let her explain that that wasn’t a thing. And I politely said, I don’t think I’m the right fit for the role. I appreciate. I was on like, the fourth round of interviews I had talked to, you know, they, you know, and they think they’re gonna hire you, they start connecting you with other people in the organization for like, these chats, you know. So I was kind of in that place, and I politely bowed out. And they were full, I remember, literally, the woman’s mouth dropped open

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  32:09

on the car, saying,

 

Amber Cabral  32:10

oh no to Google. And I was just like, I, you know, I meant no offense. I just was convicted. And so I, I’ve decided at that point, like, Okay, well, I don’t want that, and I’m gonna do what I want, and I think I can do it on my own, so I’m gonna try. And so I put together my little website, and cabralco, which had already kind of been born, was reborn, right? And it, you know, the entrepreneurial journey kind of continued from there, but like, there’s so much evidence at this point that if I just make the decision, and I make the room and I do the labor to create it, that I can have it. And the hardest part is deciding what it is that I want to have. It’s

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  32:51

almost like vision and imagination

 

Amber Cabral  32:53

yes

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  32:54

become the real priority,

 

Amber Cabral  32:55

exactly

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  32:56

because once you get off that programming hamster wheel, yes, and you’re forced to really look inward yes and assess Yes, what? And listen, yes, what is it that I actually do want to be doing with myself, with my time, with my talents? That’s that’s the hardest part. So would you say then that the biggest key to having whatever you want is first knowing what you want, so that you can name it. Like, how do you want

 

Amber Cabral  33:24

your life to feel? I go back to that like I came up in another episode. How do you want your life to feel? If you can figure out how you want your life to feel. And the reason I ask that specific way is because a lot of times we don’t think about we don’t know how to answer, what do you want? It’s like, when someone’s like, what do you want for dinner? You’re like, the answers are many, right? I don’t, how do I narrow? You know, like, now you’re like, What do you want for dinner? That’s takeout, or what do you want for dinner that’s Italian? You know that it gets a little easier. But, like, we are so used to having a framework that, like, sometimes you can have whatever you want feels too big. But I was introduced to it in a specific circumstance around, like my job experience, and then I’ve expanded it to my life, but, like, I had a framework initially, and so what I find is asking, you know, how do you want your life to feel? Actually makes you think in the moment, what does your life feel like? Do I feel good in my life? And if I don’t, why don’t I? Oh, I don’t really feel good in my life, because I’m at a size right now that I can’t fit none of my clothes. I am going to make some adjustments toward that, because what I want is to be able to fit the clothes in my closet, versus the person who was like, oh, I need to lose some weight, and I just, you know, I just don’t, I don’t want they don’t have you don’t want it. You’ve decided that, because people have told you that perhaps it’s time, right, or you’re picking up on the cues that we kind of distribute socially, that perhaps it’s time, but like, you haven’t actually gotten to the place where you’re like, No, I want that. I want to be able to wear this dress or whatever. And so I got really clear that like that would kind of get me to the position of identifying. Where the gaps were between what I actually had and where I was and what I really wanted, and so I could, you know, I could more accurately define, like, I want, you know, I remember making the decision like, I don’t want to work Mondays. I don’t work Mondays. I do like, you know, internal work. Like, Monday is an admin day for me, I do not like the frantic energy of Monday. Yeah, I do not like the frantic energy of the start of the year. I don’t like it. So I, you know, opt out. I opt out. My new year starts on my birthday. My birthday is the beginning of the second quarter, the very first day. So, hey, that’s when, that’s when my new year is. But like, I realize that frantic energy has an impact on me, so I don’t participate in that, because it’s not what I want. I don’t want your Monday energy, so I will engage with you on Tuesday, and I prefer that. So it’s yeah, I asking myself how I want my life to feel helps a lot. Tell me

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  35:56

three ways you want your life to feel like recently I want

 

Amber Cabral  36:00

my life to feel easy. I think my home is representative of that. Yes, I keep a very intentionally, well curated home. I do not ever have to leave. Everything I need is there on property, right? And anything I could potentially need beyond that can be delivered. I’m walking distance, you know, to a park. I’m walking distance to a major museum. I can hop on public transit like I’m in a place where I I feel a sense of ease in my living situation, super important for me. Another thing that I I want right now is I want to be able to and I’m working on this one. I want my business to fit me. I spent a bit of time the last few years. We’ve done well financially. Things are okay, even though last year was a very wild ride. 2023 was just bizarre because of life happening. But I’ve come to a place where what I really want is for I’m the center of my business. I want it to work around me well, and so I am in the process of creating and attracting and designing what that means, so that I can have that experience. So that’s another thing that I think is important. And then other thing would probably be my relationship. I’m very pleased. I’m happy. I feel like I attracted what I needed. I feel like I was I want that to continue to feel healthy and connected. And like, like, there is an ongoing both growth and synergy that happens, you know, so like, obviously they’re going to be, you know, where people people come with their stuff. But like, I like being in a space where I have someone that I can rely on and trust and, like, lean on, and all of those things. And I want to continue to cultivate that kind of experience too.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  37:55

Going back to this idea of abundance, before we shift gears, you mentioned that you grew up without a ton of resources, and yet, in your 20s, you adopted two children and took care of them, even though you weren’t like bawling by any means. And that also kind of makes me think about like 2020 I know 2023 was crazy. 2020, 2020. Was wild. Was a wild ride. I was there, yeah. And I just recall, like, you lost like six figures in one day, literally, of business booked because everything had shut down. And they’re like, Okay, you can’t come. And you just but the thing I remember about you though, Amber, a lot of people, a lot of people were like, pulling back and being like, oh, you know, getting scared. And I remember, that’s not me. You did not, even though, even though you lost, you literally, I lost,

 

Amber Cabral  38:55

I lost over $100,000 worth of contracts in like, two days, yeah,

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  39:01

but you kept you’re like, okay, all right, we’re gonna be okay. I mean, you were nervous, obviously, but like you at no point said, this is a wrap, this is an indica Bronco. Oh, my God, we’re folding under. No, you kept paying your bill. You kept paying me. I sure did. You just kept it moving. And so tying that back to growing up without a ton of financial resources, but still having the abundance to say, I have room for more. I have room to take you in. Oh, absolutely, you know what I mean. I have room to bring you along, and we’re gonna figure out your situation, because your situation is even worse than mine. Where does that come from, especially just yeah, that’s

 

Amber Cabral  39:48

easy. I believe in what I teach. I think that if we all do our part, whatever part that is, however large or small, that we can get to a better state of. Balance. And so, like, I might not have everything, I might not have all the financial means or resources, but this apartment I have can fit two people. So I’ve got, well, it can fit two additional people, right? So I’ve got a bedroom. Well, my sister has bedroom. Okay, we got black now, cool Blake is gonna be over here in the living room. He has his room. So, you know, like, we can, there are, there are times that we we don’t, we’re not honest, we’re not honest, or we just don’t really see where we actually have something, and the something isn’t always monetary. I mean, everything comes down to $1 at some point, right? But, like, I’m paying for an apartment, right? You know? So why wouldn’t I, in the circumstance that I was seeing unfold, open my home up, you know, to this young man. Why wouldn’t I look at what was going on? Because I, you know, my admin, Jesse. I you connected me to Jesse, you know, I initially reached out to her and was like, I know everybody is pulling out, because I know you also see the emails of everybody pulling out on me. And I knew she was seeing it, and I knew she had to be panicked, and so I reached out to her and said to her, I don’t know how, and I know this is not a lot of money, but the money I owe you for the year, I am going to pay you if I have to figure out how I will, but I just want you to know that I’m not gonna leave just because we’re in crisis. I just don’t believe that that’s the best way to handle this. And I mean, she almost cried on the phone, like she was just like, Wow, thank you. Because yes, everything is changing. And I don’t know, I don’t, first of all, let me just say this, money’s not even really real. It’s not it’s not real. It’s an idea. It is a thing that we have all bought into and believe in. So if, if, if money is something that started in the mind, why can’t I control it with mine? Why can’t I make decisions about what I want money to do for me or how I want it to show up in my life with my mind? Why can’t I have a deliberate and intentional energy about money? So like, okay, great. Y’all took away these fictitious hunting some $1,000 we got to find us another fictitious hunting some $1,000 like, we just

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  42:00

remember, you’re doing was replacing the 100 with a million. I mean, I’m not trying

 

Amber Cabral  42:06

to tell you business, okay, but that’s what I’m saying. Like, things uphold it quickly they do, right? And so, like, I, I, I’m very careful, especially around the idea of you can have whatever you want. I’m very careful about what I believe in. Money is not real. We got all these conversations going on. Money is literally an idea.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  42:27

How do people, like, break that shackle of I have thinking that money, mentally, that money, and maybe it’s

 

Amber Cabral  42:34

because I grew up with not a lot of it, but I’m okay. I learned a lot, you know, I probably spent a little more time in the hood that I should have, you know, like, I had my fair share of drug dealer boyfriends, but hey, I dated a few famous folks as my athletes do lived. I’ve lived. I’ve enjoyed my life, right? But I’ve also seen like, what it looks like when people have, you know, access and means, and what it looks like when they don’t. And so I think I, I just really, really firmly believe that you have to be very protective about what you buy into and how you attach yourself to it. And so like as much as I enjoy having income, as much as I like having means I recognize that this is fictitious. And so if I can make it happen with my mind, if we have to buy in for this to work, well, I’m just gonna buy into for it to work for me, and it, I don’t know how you break that.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  43:25

How do you work on your mindset? Do you I

 

Amber Cabral  43:29

do work on my mindset? If I think about money, it still goes back to how I wanted to feel. I never wanted to feel like I did when I was young. And I would ask for something, and I was like, Oh my gosh. I know we can’t afford this, or I can’t go on this trip or whatever. And so when I think about money, a lot of times, the way I frame it is, I don’t want to have to worry about what I want to pay for. I want to be able to pay for it and not even think about it. That’s not really so much about the money. It’s more about the experience that I’m having. So I think I focus when I, you know, as far as mindset, I focus on, you know, getting back to that place where it’s like self assess. How do you want things to feel? How do you want your life to feel? What doesn’t feel settled or easy enough or accessible to you? Or what is it that you think about that makes you a little uncomfortable? Are you avoiding it? Is that actually what you should want? But you should want, but you scared to want it. Why are you scared to want it? So, like, my brain doesn’t care. Again, yes, I’m processing like, I don’t want to be blindsided by anything. I don’t want anybody to just be able to show up in my life with a thing, and I’m like, Oh my gosh, she drives a Bentley. I just don’t, I don’t want that. I want to be decisive. And I want, I want to, I want to know me better than anybody else. I don’t want to be able to be manipulated like that. I would like to have, you know, the power to say, This is my choice, my decision making, and I am going to assert it in a way that produces the type of experience that I want. It just so happens. We live in a world that money produces. This is a lot of that too. So I’m just like, Okay, well, if this is the coin, then this is what we gotta do. That’s it. Hey, there. I hope you’re enjoying the episode, and, in fact, if you are, you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living. I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate allyship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together, you can reach out to me@cabraco.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call, and we will chat with you soon back to the show

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  45:44

on a similar vein, or maybe not, I don’t know, and I’m asking you this as a person who has notably struggled with cynicism, I can be cynical the line of work that you’re in, oh, yeah. How do you resist apathy and cynicism when it comes to the ideas that you’re championing about our workplaces? Like, what makes you believe that people can be better?

 

Amber Cabral  46:20

Yeah, because there’s a lot of evidence that people can be better. But, like, I have my cynical moments, mostly because, you know, I have a dark sense of humor, right? Like, I I’m laughing, people are funny, and so I, you know, I get my fair share of jokes in, but I, I think I’m not burnt out. Like, my burnout is usually not, because, oh my gosh, the news is just so much in my industry, my burnout is usually okay. You’ve got way too much on your plate. Like, it’s more like my own doing. My undoing is my own doing, so to speak. But you know, I think I stay away from feeling burned out, because at the end of the day I I’m not, I don’t have the expectation of it to be solved, to get better. Yeah, and I don’t expect it to be easy. And I’m not connected to ideas that I think a lot of people are, as it relates to equity. I’m not expecting I am not expecting an organization to change overnight. I am not expecting to see a lot of the changes I would like to see in my lifetime. I am not married to that. What I also am very clear about is that, like what I do matters as much as what I teach others to do. And so I make a point to put into practice in my own life, what it looks like to be an ally to, you know, role model equity, to be thoughtful about inclusiveness and a sense of belonging. I put that into practice in my life. So when I am educating people on what to do, I have real life examples I have validated. You know, I know you’re seeing this in the workplace because I’ve seen it and experienced it, and it’s an ongoing trend. Here’s how you address that. Like, I want to give people that experience, and I don’t think that approaching it from that way, I can expect these big, grand resolutions, like, but I can expect, I can’t expect minds to change, and I think we have evidence historically of minds changing. But when minds change, it’s not like George Floyd happened next year. We good, you know, and everything’s fine. I’m like, Yeah, who didn’t expect things to revert? Right? Who didn’t expect it like there would be some backlash, you know, like, political, you know, flip outs, right? I did, which is why I was telling people, like, Hey, you only can keep it alive if you keep talking about it. I used to coach my clients to that all the time, you only keep it alive if you keep talking about it. Everybody didn’t do that. They were like, Okay, we got it. We’re done. And I’m like, that’s not how mindset change works. And so because I’m committed to that. I’m not burned out. There’s gonna be another war, there’s gonna be another discriminatory act, there’s gonna be another, you know, brutal murder. Unfortunately, there are going to continue to be these things. And while my heart aches and I’m incredibly disturbed by a lot of them, I also recognize that for us to get to the place that we’re going, because it’s going to take time. It’s going to also take a lot of those experiences, and so I don’t personalize it. I grieve, I empathize, I make my decisions about where I might stand on certain issues, and then I continue on with the things that I can actually impact. Like, is my home comfortable? Am I well fed? Do I need a vacation? Because if I’m great, then I can leave a better impact on the world. That’s the biggest impact I can make, because it’s no guarantee that the people I teach are going to do what it is that I show them to do, but I can do I can show up differently. I can make decisions that you know, take shape. And how can I ask people to do that in their own lives if I’m not doing it? So I focus on role modeling the behavior and touching what I can touch. Ain’t no reason for me to be cynical. Y’all keep telling me dei is dying. I’m like, Well, boy, how everybody’s talking about it, the political parties on both sides talking about it for different reasons. Every news outlet is telling you that it’s dying. I’m like, since when is something going and everybody’s discussing it’s not a thing? So you know. Just don’t buy into the hype. Yeah, I’m just like, Okay, that’s all right. Y’all, as

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  50:05

far as organizations go that you know may bring you or any other inclusion strategist in Why are you not necessarily interested in having the same conversation this year that you had last year with the same organization, yeah, I

 

Amber Cabral  50:22

need to see practical improvement. And when I say practical improvement, there are things that can be shifted in a year. And you know that, because we all went through the pandemic, and in that year we saw some shifts. So like with some intentionality, there can be, you know, some intentional movement that happens that’s practical, like it doesn’t have to be. We have this grand, amazing, you know, development program that’s focused on making sure that, you know, people who are underrepresented are going to be immersed in the cup. You may not get to that in a year, but there are things that can get better, how we communicate with one another in this organization can get better, how feedback looks can get better, whether or not people feel a sense of psychological safety when engaging with their direct leadership. You may not be able to get the whole in a year, but I can build a relationship with my manager in a year. My manager can build a relationship with me in a year. And so I am looking for results. I am looking for what have you done with the thing that we’ve talked about already? Because I give you that thing, I give you the examples, I give you the tactics, and say, Let’s employ and they are not things that you have to redesign a program for or hire a new piece of talent, or they are you being intentional about embedding those actions in your organization? If I’ve said it to all of you, why are we not apologizing? Well, I’m I’m confused. I’ve said this to all of you, so if I can’t see that step, if I can’t see you know, things that I have actually practically given you to do. I’m not interested in coming back, coming back or what you’re not ready. What did you do? Oh, we started an erg. Is it working? What has the ERG done? Well, right? Good. I don’t need to come back. So, I mean, it’s my way of holding organizations accountable. I want to come in. I want to make an impact. And that impact isn’t about me. It’s about you being different, and the way that I can hold you accountable for that is to decide I’m not going to come back until I can see that you’re doing that, and when I see it, then okay, I can come back and we can talk about some new things and make a new plan on what to do. But before that, it’s like, no, somebody will

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  52:39

do it. Yeah. So my final question for you, Amber, okay, I am, as you know, from Nashville Tennessee. I love Nashville Tennessee. You do, I do. But when you come to my home, you don’t see Nashville artwork or Nashville signage. I’m not wearing a Nashville you’re

 

Amber Cabral  53:02

not, you’re not rocking Nashville. It’s true,

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  53:05

I mean, but I love my hometown. I think everybody who knows you knows you are from the D you are from

 

Amber Cabral  53:14

having on a Brooklyn shirt today happening to them. You know, I have to support the black owned brands. You know, this is Sean Payne’s brand, so thanks, but I mean, it does say Brooklyn and not Detroit, yes. So

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  53:25

I feel like people from Detroit like that, there’s a sense of pride and a sense of identity that comes from being from Detroit. And I just want to know from you. How’s being from Detroit shaped you and grounded you in the work that you

 

Amber Cabral  53:47

do? Yeah. So first of all, I had a very vast Detroit experience. I when I was very young, you know. So I was born in the city. I probably till I was about maybe seven, I was on the east side of Detroit, which has a very specific kind of culture. A lot of the street names are French. You know, it’s, it’s a very east siders are very pointed, right? And then, you know, we moved to the west side of the city, and I went to middle school at lesinger Middle School on Detroit’s west side of bah Rouge Park. And westsiders are, you know, still gritty, but you know, westsiders attempt to act as though you know maybe some things may be beneath them. Okay? They pretend to be. They try to make it seem as though you know they are above some things. It is not true, but that’s a little bit more of the West Side energy, right? And so we have a little bit of a little bit of a fun east side, west side, you know, thing that happens in the city. And then for high school, I went, I went to my local high school for two weeks, and then the high school no longer exists, but I went there for a couple weeks, and my mother was like, Absolutely not okay. And so she moved me to Southfield, which is actually the, you know. The first neighboring suburb over across eight mile I’m from Detroit, so I went Southfield high and and then I went to college in Detroit. So I’ve had the experience of living on both sides of the city, living in, you know, a fairly popular suburb, and then also going to college downtown. So, like, I have a pretty good working knowledge of Detroit. I know my way around. I’m familiar with the streets and the experience. And the thing about Detroit to me that is different than any other place that I have ever been is that it is authentically black everywhere, and Atlanta is very black. That’s why I live here, because it’s warmer. But what I liked about Detroit’s blackness and growing up with that is that it was normal to me. I saw like, if you just take a stroll downtown, I mean the artwork, the monuments that you see, you know, the dedications that are put up are black people. So I had the expectation Joe Lewis’s fist sits in the middle of downtown Detroit like I had the expectation that, like I should have a voice, I should communicate and speak up. I should be allowed to express myself, because I was in community, and so because I was in community, that felt like what I would do anywhere. And it wasn’t until I moved away that I realized, like, oh, so black folks really don’t say a whole lot down here, huh? This is different, you know, particularly the difference between the North and the South. And so if I were to say there’s something that, like, you know, Detroit really gave me, it made me not second guess, if I should, in some ways, that I think people that are raised in either very southern cities that still just have, like, a little bit of that, that Southern oppression, or cities that are maybe not necessarily in the Deep South, but just still have that real strong sense of segregation, that that, I mean, Detroit was segregated, but like, it wasn’t like I didn’t have to engage with white people if I didn’t want to, you know. But like, it wasn’t like I was missing anything, you know, and excluded. No, I never, ever felt excluded. And then when I started to notice the places the exclusion showed up, I felt like I could push back against it, like I got into the diversity space because I was working at, I was working at Blue Cross at the time, and I worked in the call center, and there they used to, you know, call the fourth floor the Crystal Palace. And there was nobody black that sat on the fourth floor. Oh, the executive set up there. And everybody up there was not a black person. And I, once, I kind of got wind of that and realized that I remember intentionally taking the elevator up to the fourth floor and walking around and being like, Wow. I didn’t even know this was a thing, because, again, I was so immersed culturally that I just didn’t know that that was a thing. I every school I ever went to, there were not really many other identities beyond black folks, that’s all varieties of black folks. And so it was that moment that I was like, Well, why can’t we sit up here, right? What’s up with that? Are people not smart enough to sit up here? Well, what are the job titles? Well, what’s going on? And that’s kind of what opened up my interest in, like, no, that’s not fair. How are we gonna fix that, right? And that evolved over time, but like, I still felt like I could say something, and over time I had to learn how to say things courteously and responsibly. But at no point in my life do I remember just being like, I’m not going to say what I want to say. I’m not going to defend myself, I’m not going to share my ideas. I’m not going to try to build this thing, because everybody I knew that was a business owner was black. Every club that I went to I knew, you know, clubs that were owned by multiple groups of folks, it was always at least black. One black person involved, you know. So, like, I, I had connection to that so much that for me it was the expectation. And so when I, when I did relocate it and come across places that weren’t like that. I was like, Oh, the word has not been passed. We must pass the word Juneteenth, right? I will pass the word because something is going horribly awry. And so I carry that grit, that confidence, that energy, into the places I go, because I was raised to rest in it, and I think that’s what you probably pick up on. Most Detroiters, we belong wherever we are. Do we? I am the celebrity? I understand you might be on TV, but Detroiters believe we are the celebrity. You come on in here and sit down with us. Nice to meet you. Allen Iverson, but like we, we’re not, you know, easily impressed, because we had so much to be exposed to culturally, and it was happening beneath our eyes, and we just didn’t even know. I mean, like a lot of us, know the city, you know. We know the history of the city. We know you know some of the you know riots, and you know there were still buildings burnt out in Detroit from the rights like we know those things. We know. We know the church that you know always has the you know, Berger. Raised face painted black, like, we know those things, like we have those cultural connections, but we it was so common that we didn’t notice, like, oh, that doesn’t happen in other places. We thought, This is what happens, you know, and so you’re comfortable in it. And I think that comfort made me confident. What people perceive as confident? Yeah, that was a good question.

 

Amanda Miller Littlejohn  1:00:20

That was a great answer. This was so good. Amber. Was a good chat. Thank you for joining me on the thank you for having me on your couch. Right to have thank

 

Amber Cabral  1:00:30

you for interviewing me on my couch. You’re welcome. It was a delight. Absolutely you