SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dei, people, learn, conversation, organization, consumers, feel, happen, give, inclusion, brand, learning, generations, workplace, retail, thought, impact, life, clients, love

SPEAKERS

Micheal Price, Amber Cabral

 

Amber Cabral  00:00

Three. Privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes, where you live, the places you frequent, your network capital, and even how you spend your money. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege. Welcome back to guilty privilege. My name is Amber Cabral, and today I had the privilege of talking to Michael price. She is the Director of people development and inclusion at torrid and y’all, this conversation went completely off the rails. So what we were supposed to talk about was all kinds of like, I don’t know retail dei stuff, but we ended up having a really intimate conversation about how dei really shows up in the workplace. Some of the things that we think about as it relates to bringing dei to life, some of the things that, like, we need our employees and customers to think about for to actually work, and then we just had a lot of meaty discussion around some of the behaviors that we all could pick up that would be the most impactful in the workplace. I can’t wait for y’all to tap in and hear this conversation. Thanks for joining me, Michael, thank you for having me. Hey, Michael,

 

Micheal Price  01:14

hey, Amber.  Me too. 

 

Amber Cabral  01:15

I am so excited for this conversation.  I think it’s gonna be so great because we’re actually friends. So I just think it’s gonna be a lot of yummy conversation.

 

Micheal Price  01:23

Yes, just remind me that we are on camera sometimes because we are friends, so it might get a little crazy. But, I

 

Amber Cabral  01:29

mean, we have the magic of editing. They have the magic of editing, right? So you know what happens on the podcast? Stays on the podcast. Yep, I live by that creek because I live in Vegas. So that’s very true for me. Exactly. Sounds like we’re ready. So I know that you are responsible for learning and development at torrid, and you also have responsibility for inclusion at torrid. I would be interested to hear from you how those two play together.

 

Micheal Price  01:52

So learning and development is the core of my being. It’s something that makes me happy, because I believe that you can’t do anything in life without being willing to learn, yes, without having a mindset that says there’s still more for me to learn. Because I think a lot of people make a decision at some point in their lives. They’re done experts. 

 

Amber Cabral  02:10

I’m done learning. 

 

Micheal Price  02:11

I don’t need to learn anything else. And I love learning. I’m such a nerd and so and I enjoy working with other people who understand the benefit that learning can bring to them. So I also think you have to look at everything in life through the lens of being willing to learn. I say that including inclusion, right and so. But you know what? Thank you. You said some nice things about me in the beginning. I’m gonna turn this around here for a second, because one of the things that has been really important to me in this journey is learning more about inclusion and what I can do to impact that in my organization and in my life. And you taught me a lot about that, more about that, including that phrase and knowing when to say it, right? Yeah, but inclusion, I think, is something that a lot of people still struggle with in terms of understanding what it really means. Because words mean things, they have definitions beyond the dictionary, and inclusion is a hard one. I’m not gonna lie. It’s difficult for me to figure out how to say the right thing sometimes, to help people understand what it means in our organization, but what it means should mean in your life. Because I’m not trying to help people just at work, I hope that they take some of these things back home with them, right? So for me, it’s, it’s a big burden to bear to know that I’m doing and saying the right thing. And something that you’ve said to me before, and I think you’ve said to the world before, is that inclusion is not everyone all the time. It is not, it is not everybody everywhere all at once. It cannot happen. This is not a movie. No, not at how it goes. Yes, and when I think about the work that we do, specifically at torrid and in my life, that’s been, that’s been an important lesson for me to figure out, how do I explain this to people? How do I say this in a way that makes people not think I’m advocating for exclusion, because that’s very important, right? But also help them understand what it means to be able to say that and bring it to life. So, so I’m gonna ask you on your podcast, how did you figure that out? And how did you figure out how to say that in a way that people understand? Because that’s the benefit that I feel like you’ve had on me personally. And when you work with our org, you can say the hard things that they’re just hard for me. 

 

Amber Cabral  04:18

So So you tell me that’s a good question. Honestly, like how the how is a great question. So I just, I generally operate from the ethos that if it doesn’t get said, it can’t be addressed. And I don’t like how my life feels when things aren’t addressed, and I don’t like how life in general feels when things aren’t addressed. So I tend to be, and I encourage my clients to move this way as well. I tend to be in the space of, let’s figure out how to say the thing that needs to be said. Because if we can figure out how to say the thing that needs to be said, then we can actually do something about it. So there was a window of time which I know, you know. Is when people would not say racism at work, or people weren’t to say certain words exactly, were bad words exactly. You couldn’t say black. You know, I am a whole black person. Yeah, I could not say black without people looking like, oh my god, is it okay, right? And I just, I have always just felt like that is prohibitive. It’s keeping you from being able to get to the place where you can have the most impact. And so in my partnership, in the opportunities that I’ve had to come work with you at torrid, my and you, you know, you’ve been there, obviously for this, but like my dialog has always been, what are the things that you know you need to say? What’s in the way of you saying them, and then an actual practice to make sure that I’m giving you the language to do it? Yep. And you know, one of the things, and I like that you said, what’s in the way of you saying it? That’s a huge part of what we do in L and D and N, de, I work in general, is what are your roadblocks? And how do you figure out what those are? Because sometimes you just don’t know, or you haven’t taken the time to think about it. A lot of us have privileges that we just don’t and you don’t recognize, yeah, and so you also can, can’t recognize them when other people have relatives, right? Because you don’t even see this problem, right? So having the opportunity to sit and talk through things with people, and sometimes it’s just as simple as saying, why? Yes,

 

Micheal Price  06:16

I can’t do this.

 

Amber Cabral  06:17

Why? 

 

Micheal Price  06:17

Can you give me some perspective about Why is this hard for you? Yeah, why is this difficult? Like to understand? Yeah, answering that question is difficult. It is. And guess what? It’s supposed to be. I think people are delusional about the fact that dei isn’t pretty or fun or easy. I think that we do ourselves a disservice. I’m saying we because I think there are a lot of people who teach in the area that I teach in that tend to paint this picture of Dei, like, this is the definition of diversity. Yes, here is what bias means, blah, blah, blah. And so there’s been, like, this relatively manipulative framing of what dei is. And so people expect that it’s gonna feel good, like the training did, and it’s gonna be entertaining. Yeah, we’re gonna love it. It’s human work that’s and that’s something that I try to express to people all the time. I’m going to make mistakes. You are going to make absolutely, I am going to say the wrong thing. You are going to say the wrong Yep. So we can do simple, simple things to try and rectify that. But at the core of this, you have to understand that we’re two human beings trying to have a human conversation, absolutely, and we are also trying to solve problems that have been here since forever, forever, forever, and we’re not going to do that. No, it’s never going to be a thing. This is also why I try to tell clients too, like I can help you on a dei journey. I can help you get to a place where you can be impactful in your conversations. You can start to see culture change. You can shift behaviors. You can talk about hard things. What I cannot do is get to the place where you no longer need dei or however you frame it. Idea, there’s all kinds of acronyms, right? There’s all the acronyms. So like I try to make a point to set clients expectations around what the actual goal is, because the goal is not, all right, we’re inclusive, yes, well, in it, and you also don’t ever complete the mission. No, you will never just be done. Not Dei, right? And that’s something that I always hope that consumers of any retail brand or anyone that engages with any organization really understands. Because if you love an organization and you’ve been watching them for a while and you really care, it’s in your soul, dei, you’re probably watching a lot of them right now, going, why aren’t they done? It’s 2024, why aren’t they where they’re supposed to be right now? And where’s the supposed and where’s the supposed where’s the supposed to be? Yeah. So, so there’s a lot of things that I hope everyone thinks about not just dei practitioners, but consumers. Anybody that’s on the receiving end of these conversations is that the work has to happen inside absolutely before you’re ever going to see any external Yeah. You know,

 

Amber Cabral  08:53

here’s the other thing I’m tapping on the consumer piece, yeah, one of the things that is very frustrating to me, and you know this about me as well. I tend not to be very reactive. So when there is a call for a boycott shutdown, we not shopping at I tend to be a little bit on the quiet side. I have a lot of retail clients. I have a lot of visibility into how decisions are made, and I am, in no way, shape or form, saying that people do not make poor decisions. But we talking about an organization full of people, right? Somebody’s gonna do something wrong. Absolutely, somebody’s going to make a poor decision. There are going to be a litany, perhaps, of poor decisions. And I think that sometimes what happens is that consumers, and I think this is partially because we are very frustrated in general, with the landscape of Dei, but I think secondarily, we are just at the point where we feel like we get to have a voice about it, right? There hasn’t been as much like dei outrage in my generation, like previous generations, sure, right? We had, of course, entire Civil Rights Movement, yeah. We even had, like, you know, and this was part of our lifetime, but like, we were still relatively young when, you know, gay marriage was legalized, but like, in terms of major. Movements. We just are in one now, right? And people, we are at the be, yeah, with the beginning, beginning. When we go back and look at the history books, we’re gonna say, oh my gosh, we were there when this Yes, and this, this wave yes started Exactly. And they, they last a long time. They last a lot, years, years, absolutely. And so I think that, like, there’s got to be this understanding on the consumer side that, like, this is a journey. And so your favorite brands, your favorite influencers, your retailers, they’re learning. They’re learning. And I think we have to figure out a way to make sure consumers have that visibility. But also, and this is something I coach clients on a lot as well, like, you have to be willing to take some ownership, yes, because you have essentially, through being a business, created a place for people to gather, right? They’re going to exchange ideas. They’re going to encounter different beliefs. They’re going to come from different backgrounds. And so, by nature of you just literally having a business, as a business owner, this is also in my in my lab too, you have to figure out what you’re going to do when the problems arise? Yes, you have to figure out how you’re going to have the hard conversations, because otherwise they will

 

Micheal Price  11:09

sneak up on you. They will sneak up on they’ll sneak up on you publicly. Yeah.

 

Amber Cabral  11:13

So we’ve seen that happen with a lot of folks, and ultimately it’s been an impact that has been difficult to navigate, not just for the business, but for the folks who want to engage with that business, because now I feel like I can’t wear X brand, or we don’t have visibility to what even really happened entirely. And what

 

Micheal Price  11:29

I would say most consumers really want is those brands just to show up authentically. That’s it, right? Just there needs to be a human being behind the brand that that can come out and say, You know what? Maybe we made a mistake here, or we didn’t think this all the way through, or we have an opportunity to learn. To me, it always I

 

Amber Cabral  11:46

apologize for moving forward. I will, yes, if I if there is a singular thing I could get brands and just all of my clients to get, please hold on to that. I apologize for moving forward. I will you will use it in multiple phases of your

 

Micheal Price  12:05

life. And if you are doing this thing right, yes, which is engaging in conversations where you are going to learn, where you’re going to impart knowledge on Earth, etc, you are going to be apologizing more than you ever Absolutely because you’re going to be wrong a lot. You’re going to say things that don’t make sense, even when you go back and think about exactly later. But either way, you have the ability now to keep this conversation going absolutely and that’s what I think learning and being having an open mind, being curious does, because if you’re curious, and you’re genuinely curious and you want to learn, you’re going to end up in a conversation with someone where you make a mistake. You need to be able to do that right? So, and it keeps the conversation going, right? I just, I, what I would love for everyone to remember is that this is a first time experience for all of us. Yeah, unless you know something, I don’t, all of us being human, right? The first time we’re doing this right, exactly. So anytime we engage in something new, like the stei journey, for a lot of us, it’s the first time exactly. And we’re making a lot of we

 

Amber Cabral  13:02

gotta have some grace. We have there has to be some grace. I do think, I think that consumers could afford to have a bit of grace, and I think that we can. And I want to be really clear about this, I do not think that grace has to mean a lack of accountability. Absolutely, I think I can grant you grace for mistakes, because you are a large corporation made of multiple people, and you know, a group of them have made a decision that is impacting the whole I think we can have that understanding while simultaneously saying, but what are you going to do about Yes, and so I try to make sure, you know, even in the work that you and I do together, I’m always like, okay, here is what’s going on in the business that you’re noticing that’s happening. What are we going to do about it? How does Tor want to communicate with, you know, their employees about this thing? How do we want to make sure, you know, this ends up in the marketplace, if there is a conversation? Because ultimately, the avoidant, the avoiding is what’s gonna get you in trouble. Yeah,

 

Micheal Price  13:51

and a lot of organizations do it. I know for for a fact that there was a period where we were doing, you know, was every organization right, everywhere don’t know what to say because you just don’t know what to say. Yeah, because you want to be sure that you don’t offend people. You want to be sure that you are being the supportive entity, yes, that your consumers know you are, that your teams know you are. I always go into any conversation with anyone that says dei matters to them with positive intent, because for you to even speak those words, this matters to me. Yeah, that’s pretty courageous. It is. So that’s a I hate to say, but in 2024 that’s still a very bold statement, right? So it’s important that I think people give each other grace, understand ownership and accountability, but then create a path forward together. You know, like, this is a cohesive journey, the customer, the brand, the humans behind that. We’re creating what we want this world to look like together. So I think something that Tor does really well is we take our customer feedback very seriously. I

 

Amber Cabral  14:56

think you’re, you’re in a good position to do that, though, yeah. Like, I think one of the things that I enjoy. About torrid, um, having not had a lot of exposure to the brand, except for when it was also, like, Hot Topic stores were my thing, right? Like, so that was my I was into the, like, yeah, you know, slightly rude T shirts. Yes, that was my thing. But the HAPPY BUNNY t shirt, yes, listen, I, you know, there was a window of time where, like, there was all this, like, Playboy Bunny stuff. And that was, like, apparently the era I was, I came up in, so yes, I definitely have have had exposure in that way, but like, as we kind of got to know each other through the work that we were doing, I didn’t have exposure to the brand the same way until I kind of got to know you. I knew retail, right, but I didn’t necessarily know this particular brand. And one of the things that I think that Torre has done really well is is that kind of like ownership, like you and I have very candid conversations about this is what we need to work on. This is how I would like us to show up. Here is what I am concerned about, yeah, and I think that for a for someone who does what I do, for a dei consultant, to show up and be impactful, that openness and dialog has to happen, but also there has to be awareness on the client side, that is, I can’t fix it for you, right? I can tell you, I can help you. I can give guidance, I can make recommendations. And then on your side, there has to be a willingness to say, I don’t know this. Yes, I need help with this, because otherwise we can’t get to we really just can’t get to us all. Yeah, and what’s been great about working with y’all is that I do feel like there’s been some intentionality there around Okay, look, let’s Yeah, here’s the lay of the land. Yep. Let us figure out how to do it. And I think the other reason your position well is who your primary focus is on. Yeah, like, yeah, we’re talking about full figured people, but women, yes. And so when you are thinking about serving a population that is considered underrepresented and marginalized. And we know the data, like the average size of a woman in the US, I believe, is a size 16, but you can’t always go in a Nordstrom and find that’s us, right? You know, no knock on Nordstrom, but you know, it gets a little tough sometimes, right? And so or there just are not enough. There’s not enough to choose from. And so what I think helps you with your dei journey overall is that your target is a person that is going to see the value almost immediately in an organization. Being on the journey, I

 

Micheal Price  17:11

love talking to you. I’ve been wanting to interrupt you for so long because you got like, I get so passionate talking about everything that you did, rocking out. There is. So I’ll go back for a second, because you mentioned hot topic. What I love about torrid is when we first decided to engage you, or, you know, in 2020 when everyone was going on this journey, we did something that I hope a lot of folks did, but we went and we partnered with someone and said, Let’s survey us, like, let us give you some data, and then you tell us where we have opportunity, because we know that we probably have some opportunity of our own, but we’d like to know, you know, on a map, yeah, like, show me what, show me in a measurable way, right? In a measurable way. What could we do to impact the sense of belonging for our employees here? Because that’s the most important thing, right? We need to create a sense where everyone feels like they belong here before we can make people feel like they belong in the stores, right? Exactly, yeah. But it was really hard for us, and I’ll tell you why, because at the beginning, like a lot of people, I’m sure, we went, we’re very inclusive, right, right, right? And, I

 

Amber Cabral  18:14

mean, if you think about how topic two, it was kind of like, respectfully, sort of like the brand for weirdos, right? And that’s

 

Micheal Price  18:19

exactly where I was going, yeah? Because you got to think about our, you know, our story. Yeah, right. So, and I don’t know if I’ve ever told you the detailed part of the story, but toward came about because Hot Topic had a lot of consumers of all different ages, races, you know, different identities and plus size women often came in and said, This is me. This is my esthetic. This is who I want to be when I go out into the world, but the clothes don’t fit me, so give me an opportunity to do that. And so literally, out of a suggestion box in the hot topic, corporate offices, in stores, that’s how Torah was born. I was like, you know, we’ve had a lot of people say they want this. Let’s try it. Why not? Because we care about the people that come in here. That’s amazing

 

19:03

to feel seen businesses need to be more like that. That’s such a great story. Just a suggestion

 

Micheal Price  19:08

box, right? And so built this wonderful, beautiful, inclusive business from it. And so that’s why you have that at the root. You know, it was built into the foundation, into the bones of who toward was. So then when you start having conversations like, what happened in 2020 you go, I think we’re in a good place. But are we really? Are we really? Are we really? And so sometimes you need to be able to step back and say, I’m in it right now. What does it look like to be out of it? What does it look like to be someone like you who really didn’t have, yeah the brand was, or what the visibility to the brand was so so I that’s a huge part of why I love what tour does, because of what we are built on. Foundationally. We want people who have been excluded from a conversation like fashion for so long to feel like, why can’t I be because fashion is notorious. Is for ignoring larger bodies.

 

Amber Cabral  20:01

I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode, and if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations, to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called allies and advocates, and this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful ally. It has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there, both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say more about that. Now. Say more about that is more about helping you to speak up, to push back, to challenge, to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult. And in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things, you can go pick up those books anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there. Back to the episode. Oh my gosh, it’s an ongoing conversation. I think it’s louder. I think it’s louder. I think even when I think about my own clients, I think what I’ve seen happen is an awareness, but not necessarily a pointed action like I think that there have been some attempts. I think that some of those attempts, this is the other thing that I think can really, you know, disrupt dei work. There have been attempts, and when an attempt doesn’t go perfectly in the first three months, just scrap it. Folks want to scrap it. The media wants to tear it apart. Suddenly, it’s oh, this brand focused on inclusion, and now everything’s falling apart. It’s like, no, no, no. That’s not what’s happening here, you know? And so there is, there’s something very rich about being able to recognize that you still have an opportunity to grow. You may be touching some of the consumers that you would like to touch, but there is actually, if we’re thinking about it from an equity standpoint, a space that you can evolve to be more impactful. And so an organization that’s been like, hey, that’s part of our lifeblood. Is it time for us to do that here? Absolutely is great, you know, like, I don’t know. I don’t know that. I see that as often as I would like. I also think, going back to the part about people being afraid, I think companies are afraid, absolutely. I think companies are afraid. They want to say the wrong literally. I think just on this podcast alone, the number of people that I have asked to participate as a guest that were like, I don’t know what to say, that would not put me in the position that my company would look at it like suspiciously, right? Or, you know, folks having the experience of, oh, I would really like for you to talk about this on the podcast, but I can’t be the person to do it, because I’m concerned about the impact it’s going to have on my brand. There is this fear that is literally showing up at the organizational level that I have some recommendations for, that I have some perspective on. I would love to hear what you think we should be doing. But you know, I that fear is it’s prohibitive well, and

 

Micheal Price  22:59

you know, the honest truth that I think everyone has to accept is that retailers are thinking about many things. That’s it, many, many, many things, and one of them is public sentiment. Yes, and we have to accept that public sentiment is always going to be divided. It is always from the history of the world, public sentiment has been divided on everything,

 

Amber Cabral  23:19

what we should be eating. We cannot get to it. We can’t agree about diet. We cannot agree about what side of the road we should be driving. All around the globe. We don’t all speak the same language. We are not in agreement on a myriad of things, no. And getting to the place where you recognize that agreement isn’t necessary is such a critical one? Yes, yeah. And

 

Micheal Price  23:34

that is difficult for retail. It is. It doesn’t excuse you not trying, correct, but it is very, very difficult, so, but one thing that I think is going to happen for us very soon is whether we agree or not what customers, or, excuse me, what retailers care about more than anything our customers, that’s right, and that’s what $1 comes from, yes, and their customer is rapidly changing. That’s right, you know. And they’re very vocal, and they’re very vocal this new generation that’s coming in, yes, they have an expectation that you will care about D, that’s right, that it will show up, yep, that they will feel like and they can ask about it too, and they can ask about it, and you should have an answer that’s right for it. So

 

Amber Cabral  24:13

it’s gonna affect the talent pipeline. It’s gonna affect the way business is done. It’s gonna affect the way talent shows up in this is it? It’s literally inevitable.

 

Micheal Price  24:22

Dei integration is pivotal for any organization’s growth, and so I’m really excited because this new organization, or this new generation is going to come in and say, you have to do this, right? Or I’m not gonna work talent. Yes, if you want the talent, you must do this. So I actually have a very rosy outlook for the future. I love it, you know? I think it is. It’ll be slower than we expect. You know, if you’re like me, you really want to immediate gratitude you wanted yesterday. Yes, and we are going to have to accept that this is a marathon, not a sprint, and we’re going to get there through continued focus. On this. We can’t, we can’t stop, but that next generation is going to be the one that comes in and requires absolutely, that this is important, absolutely, and they have the muscle to do it, yeah, because they’re, I think I read something that said that they’re like 60% of the workforce already, yes, yeah. I feel old. I know. Go back and live with your mama for young space. Little longer, right? Adulthood is the worst hood. Why are you here? Legit? That is it. Um, but, but it’s important, right there. It is important. The work that they’re doing is very important. Um, this generation, they, uh, what did they say? As the kids say, they’re standing on their business. They’re standing

 

Amber Cabral  25:39

on a business. They standing on your business too. Every time they standing on the business, they mean it, yeah, I agree. It’s exciting. It is exciting. It’s really exciting. It is exciting. There’s still some learning that needs to happen. I think they gotta help us do I agree. I agree. I agree. I think that the accountability is is necessary. In fact, it’s often a part of the strategy that I use, like one of the things I did this year, the top of 2024, 2024, is decide that my approach was going to lean a lot heavier on supporting employees. And I’ve always, you know, framed the work that I do as I am an employee advocate. I want to support employees and being able to navigate these organizations and also get the work done that’s necessary to help equity and belonging come to life, right? But I also have been, you know, really purposeful about this year, making sure that I am giving people the tools they need as employees to be able to challenge Yes, to be able to ask the hardest say the hard, to be able to say hey, I noticed on your you know, website, you have an inclusion and equity statement. How does that show up in this role? Like I want more people to feel like they have the ability to hold people accountable, because I would like to see the change. I know that it’s coming, but it is going slow, but if we can get a few more people with the right words to push it along, I’m for that, and this is why I always say that everything has to be seen through a lens of learning, because these are transferable skills. If I can learn to ask a question and environment in a board meeting that might be tough, if I can learn to ask a question in a stand up meeting every morning that we have that is going to put somebody on the spot, if I can learn to ask those questions in those hard environments, I will ask the right questions when it comes to the things that I value. And that is a difficult skill. Some people do not have the skill. Yeah, they’re not going to ask anything. They’re not they’re going to not only not ask anything, they are going to wait for you to tell them. And that’s that the clash of generations in the workplace. I think that’s kind of how it shows up. It is with a lot of young folks who are like, No, my expectation is that I experience equity in this organization. And then the flip side of that is that you’ve got a group of folks who have been at the organization for, I don’t know how long, but are like, yeah, the way we get work done here is Uh huh. And so we’re holding on to the status quo, and then we’re challenging the status quo, and it’s creating disruption. So I mean, to your point, like, there just really isn’t a thing I think that an organization can do to get out of the way of it. It’s coming. Yeah? And if you want to continue to be in business and you need people to run your business, as most businesses do, yes, then we’ve got to figure out how to create environments where folks understand how to pull the accountability lever, are willing to engage in tough conversation, are able to recognize that giving and receiving feedback are a critical piece of being able to survive. And I heavy on the receiving feed. Yeah, heavy, heavy, heavy on the receiving feedback. And that’s important, because I think that is a skill you can build. How to give feedback, right? But how to receive it? Yes, it’s an emotional Yeah,

 

Micheal Price  28:33

okay, it’s it is less about

 

Amber Cabral  28:35

between your nose and your navel, everything just start. You got heartburn. You feel like you’re on a roller coasters. You got to say this thing. You don’t know how to say it’s stuck in your throat. It’s a lot happening. Yeah?

 

Micheal Price  28:44

Yeah. You know, I had a meeting this morning. I worked really, really hard on this project, and someone said, You know what I think we could do differently, and everything just went down. Yes, because I don’t want to know what you don’t care what you you didn’t even tell me. I

 

Amber Cabral  28:55

did a great job yet, right? This is a great job. You know, I know I was up all night doing it,

 

Micheal Price  29:00

but did I need the feedback? Yes, absolutely. Am I going to get better without the feedback? No, never, yeah. So So yes, do I need to be able to have the skill to go in and stand up for myself and say the things? You also need to have the skill to hear the thing that’s so true and so true that is something that with all of the generations. First of all, I have a whole thing about generational stuff. I know I’m the one that brought it up, but generations are just labels that you put on people that were born in different times and have access to different techniques. That’s it. That’s it. Okay, we all want the same thing. Yes, you know, like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, that’s we learned about in high school, right? We care about belonging, we care about physical safety. We care about, you know, creating a life that we live, it’s gonna look different based on the period of time that you live in, right? So, so I’m not, I’m not saying anything negative about a particular generation when I say this, but there are some generations that are more skilled in receiving, I agree, the hard feedback. There are some generations that are more skilled in giving the hard feedback. Back, there are some generations that will cry if you give them the hard feedback. So what does that look like for organizations that are trying to build the ability to have a conversation? That is hard. Dei is hard. It is so if I come to you and I say, I don’t think we have an inclusive workplace, are you prepared to answer the question, are you prepared to do something about it? So, so what does preparation look like that? That’s where you find,

 

Amber Cabral  30:27

you know, listen, and I love it because I want, I want, I want the questions about preparation. And I also want, I want people to ask questions in general, yeah, I want more of that. I want more of us to say, okay, is this right? You know, one of the questions I always give teams are, you know, psychological safety is a big deal in an organization. It’s a conversation that, you know, we are seeing a lot more of online, and so I always give people just a simple tool of like, simply ask the question, you know, what can I do to make this space safe for you? Because even if I don’t have an answer for you, I at least am going to be able to acknowledge that you care. Yes, you care enough to have asked me what it is that I need to be able to feel safe here, yes. And the benefit for the asker is that they get the opportunity to say, Oh, I get I got to think about that. The person who’s receiving the question is going to say, Oh, let me figure out what that might look like, right? And so both folks get the benefit. Both people have the opportunity to take that information, digest it, and decide what to go forward looks like, which, in my opinion, candidly, the biggest issue that I see in dei as a whole is that there’s an action, yes, there’s a lot of words. Well, fear is a great Yes, terrible in it is it absolutely is it will keep you from doing anything, moving, yes, yes, yes. People will go through an entire session with me, and then I’ll have a one on one conversation, and they’ll say, you know, I just, I’m really having a hard time talking to her about this, and I’m like, But we talked about how we have the words we have, the tactics we have. I’ve given that courage. So like, now you gotta do it, courage. You gotta do exactly part,

 

Micheal Price  32:01

you know? And you always ask, you know, how earlier, I said, Sometimes you ask that very simple question, why? And people will give you all of the answers, well, this, well, this, well, this, well, and the real answer is always, because I don’t have the courage. I’m uncomfortable. Yes, because I don’t have the courage. So how do you get people comfortable with being uncomfortable? And I know that’s kind of a very common phrase, but there’s so much behind it that you really have to peel back the layers and say, in this particular situation, you are uncomfortable for a specific reason.

 

Amber Cabral  32:31

Yes, and discomfort is good. It helps. You know, like, okay, something needs to change. Discomfort creates learning. You are all uncomfortable in 2020, oh, I learned a lot. I learned a whole lot. I learned things that I thought I knew that were wrong, correct. I unlearned. I also learned to make sure always some toilet paper, some lights, all in my house. Also learned

 

Micheal Price  32:49

that people need to keep more stuff in their house, because why was everybody’s everybody? Why did no one have enough toilet paper? No one had any of the things they needed. We had no hair sanitizer. But you know what? I say that I have plenty of toilet paper. I didn’t have any of the other stuff. Though. It’s like, I’m gonna starve if I don’t, if I don’t go I have

 

Amber Cabral  33:07

toilet paper too, but I legit have friends sending me disinfectants because I didn’t have any. I had no disinfectant of any kind. I was like, why don’t I have more than this one solo bottle, like, 409, I learned I’m gonna put myself on the spot. I learned that I definitely don’t wash my hands for long enough, because I was watching all those PSAs 20 seconds really long is a long time, and it’s like they give you the same Happy Birthday twice, and so you like now I that was so that’s a perfect example. What I love about this conversation is we learned you learned simply something just as basic that you thought you were doing right, that you were doing wrong, right? You need to wash your hands for 20 seconds. Yes, you need to vigorously rub for 20 seconds. Yes. And a lot of us were not. A lot of us were still coughing like this instead of coughing like this, right? So like, I’m like, we learn. It’s a lesson. So if you are uncomfortable, maybe there’s an opportunity for you to grow in that space. And

 

Micheal Price  34:01

I think this is actually a great way to think about all the things that are happening in dei too, now, because we learned all that, right, right? I’m watching a lot of bad, bad habits, a lot of things that tell me you did not a lot of things right? Because for those, every two step forward, yes, that you take, you take some big ones back occasionally, and so you’re gonna see that happen. But that’s progress. It is. That is how progress is measured. It is. It’s all the big steps you take forward, it’s even the little ones you take back, but you’re making progress Exactly. And so I’m hoping that people will learn, yeah, and if we ever have another covid, you’ll know how long to wash your hands, how to cough, and how to cough. And if you know something like the revelations of 2020 ever happen again. People will be more prepared to have the kind of conversations that they need to have, and they won’t be as nervous, and they won’t be as scared, and if they do, they have the resources, and they know there’s people like you out there and people like me that care, and it’s important that they know people care, you know, because at the root of all this, we’re all human. Beings. And that’s the thing that I try and remind Yeah.

 

Amber Cabral  35:02

Like, we can’t get away from that part for sure. Nope. I have a question for you. Yeah, this is a little bit of a deviant question, no, but I’m curious. Like, I’m sure that went toward decided that you were going to engage a consultant. You thought about some things. I have some opinions about what I think. You know, obviously clients should be looking for and we look for certain things, obviously, before we elect to work with a client. But what were some of the things that made you say, this is the right person for us we want to, you know, engage. What, what? Yes, what were, what were those conversations? What were those high points that was like, yes, hey there. I hope you’re enjoying the episode. And in fact, if you are you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living. I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate allyship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together, you can reach out to me@cabraco.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call, and we will chat with you soon back to the show.

 

Micheal Price  36:13

Well, you know, it was a little self serving, I will say, because the good thing is, I had a lot of agency over the Okay, okay. So there were me and a few other key people that were really making the decision. But luckily, people trusted me enough to say, Yes, I will let Michael decide at the end of the day. And so I was looking for three very specific things. So a I wanted someone who understood retail. It is a different landscape than any other you are touching. Retail is so important in ways I don’t think people realize right

 

Amber Cabral  36:46

it’s everything. It’s everything in your house, everything you are looking at right now, this literal screen that you are watching us on is a retail product. Everything is retail,

 

Micheal Price  36:54

and especially for our what we do. Yes, it’s less about what you’re wearing it, and more about how those clothes make you feel it’s about your confidence. It’s about so I need someone who understands the impact of the class. I wanted them to be in retail. I prefer that it be a person that was in a marginalized community, however you want to use that phrase, right? A woman, a person of color, etc, you know? And then I needed to know that that person had experience speaking to customers. Oh, yeah, not just, not just employees, but also customers, right? So, and the reason why that’s important is because the customer is the ultimate decision maker. Yes, period. They are the decision maker. They are the one that’s going to say, I believe you. Tori, yep, I believe you. Actually, I’m deciding about dollars, and I’m where my dollars go. And it’s not just about dollars, but I but it is. It

 

Amber Cabral  37:43

is you want us to remain, wanting to continue? Exactly, yes. So,

 

Micheal Price  37:46

so I needed someone who understood the customer, who understood, you know, internal and external. I would like for them to be a specific type of person, and need them to work in retail. Let me tell you, there are not a lot of people with those qualifications. It’s not out there, you know. So when I found you, and then actually got a chance to take a look at your work, and I thought, am I being punished? She is very good at this, you know. And is it? Is she very good at this? Because she checks all these boxes that I’m saying she should check, and I work in retail, and I understand, you know, she understands retail, or does she really understand this? So after our very first session, I thought, no, she really understood. I love this word. She gets this she understands this work. She understands who we’re trying to impact, why we’re trying to impact them. And you created an environment where people felt safe, going back to that psychological thing, I can’t tell you how many people would come after those sessions and say, I really like her. She’s so easy to talk to. She’s a normal person. Because what happens? And I do it all the time. You know, you get into these training sessions and you get very buttoned up.

 

Amber Cabral  38:55

Welcome to today’s diversity training.

 

Micheal Price  38:57

Yes, and you can’t help it, right? Because you think that’s what you’re supposed to do. Ridiculous voice like, hi. Oh my, everything changes, right? Like, what hair Am I gonna have? Yes, how am I going to everything changes because you’re trying to project this level of expertise, right? I need people to believe that I’m an expert, so I’m gonna put it on and they Big time, big time, yeah, so that they will go and have changed behavior, right? Something I learned from you is you don’t have to do that on that time, not if you want people to authentically understand exactly that what you’re saying is true, right? At least Yes, right? It may change, yes, but today, I’m giving you information that you’re going to be able to leave with and impact yourself, your employees, the customers, you’re going to go and change your behavior, and you’re going to create a more inclusive environment. You’re going to do that because I told you that authentically, right? Because I told you it’s in a way, to

 

Amber Cabral  39:52

feel real. It wasn’t like, Okay, real, check the box, performance. Yes, yeah. And

 

Micheal Price  39:56

so that was very, very important to me, and I. Um, thank you. And look at us. I know this was

 

Amber Cabral  40:02

bringing that back. I needed that. That was a little, that was a little bit of a selfish lien. So I appreciate that. I

 

Micheal Price  40:07

like giving comments. I

 

Amber Cabral  40:08

want to call a couple things that I have two questions left, so my second to last question, or, you know, I just would love to get your insight here. I know that Tord has won a number of awards from Forbes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because you’ve done, you’ve won consecutive,

 

Micheal Price  40:19

consecutive award. Yes, so 2020, 2021, 2022 2023 we were voted up best workplace for diversity, many awards, similar for Newsweek as well, best workplace for diversity, as well as being the best workplace for women, which is also very important, best workplace for new grads. Oh, good. Oh, I should have pulled out my I know you need a little roster, yeah, a little scroll. We did. We had a good year. But all those awards don’t mean anything unless you actually do it like and you do it you’re doing and like you deserve it. And so anytime we get those awards, I’m always the nerdy one in the background going, where did they get this data?

 

Amber Cabral  41:01

Yeah, where

 

Micheal Price  41:02

did it come? Yeah, who

 

Amber Cabral  41:03

are they comparing us against? Who

 

Micheal Price  41:04

are they comparing us against? And I actually love it, because they give you all that. Oh, that’s fantastic. You can feel really confident like, Oh, we did earn this. We’re doing this. But even when we earned them, I wouldn’t ask people, do you think we deserve this? Yeah, and that’s interesting. We got a mixed bag. You know, there were some people that said, Yeah, but I feel like, yes, we deserve it. Because I do feel like this is a very diverse workplace, but it’s not in my face the way I wish it was. We should have more events. We should talk about it more. We should market this more. And then I had people that were like, Oh my gosh, yes, this is the most diverse workplace I’ve ever worked for. And then I have some people say, No, yeah, no, I don’t think so, at least not in my environment, right, right? I work in a department store, whatever that I don’t see a lot of people that look like me. So is it not is it more about representation, which I feel like those words get mixed up a little bit diversity and representation? So are we not doing a great, great job of representing you, or do you not feel like we’re a truly diverse workforce, so you can get really in the needs of those things? But I feel like when you get awards like that, ask the question, I deserve it. Are we? Are we just people love it? 

 

Amber Cabral  42:19

Yeah, I like the approach of asking your employees what they think I love that I think that, you know, kind of to the point we were making earlier. Sometimes organizations can just see, Okay, we’re done. We did it. Check, yep, inclusive, yeah, what’s next? And we have to be very careful about taking that approach, because you, the minute you stop being intentional, you run the risk of losing the progress you’ve made. Absolutely, it’s one of the biggest things I have with clients, is that, you know, we’ll come in and we’ll do these fantastic things, and then I’m gone, and diversity is gone, like the inclusion is gone, the equity is nowhere to be found. It’s out we’re not doing it anymore. And I’m like, Yeah, I’ve to make sure people understand, like I am not the inclusion in your workplace, like you have to figure out how to, you know, make it come to life. And so asking the organization, hey, we got this award. How do you feel about it? I think that’s an amazing approach. Yeah, mediocrity

 

Micheal Price  43:08

doesn’t cut it. It doesn’t you can’t just

 

Amber Cabral  43:12

put that on a winner. I wish I could put that on my job description. I can’t do that. I

 

Micheal Price  43:16

bet you No, but I still think, I mean, you own the place. You probably right. I’m not publicly traded. Yeah, yeah, get away with it. Not a good idea. But, um, you got to work hard to earn it, yeah, and, and I always want to feel like we earn what we get, yeah, and so I’m very proud. I do think we’ve been earning it, and I hope, hope we have another good year this year.

 

Amber Cabral  43:35

Yeah, I hope so. I’m on your side. Thank you here for it. Okay, so my final question question I ask everyone that comes on this show. We’re called guilty privilege. For a reason, a lot of people feel guilty about their privilege, but as you and I both know, Privilege is actually something that gives you a lot of power and influence, and so I want to kind of break that down so people have a better understanding of what the privilege in their lives can do. So my question for you is, what is one privilege that you have that you refuse to feel guilty about?

 

Micheal Price  44:03

I would say that I have been fortunate enough to live a life that’s based on my curiosity and not my circumstance. And what I mean by that is I have been given the freedom, the ability, the whatever, to focus on the things that matter to me. Learning Matters to Me, development matters to me, working and helping people, all of that stuff matters to me a lot. And I’ve been fortunate enough to be placed in a position where that’s something that I get to do, you know, and it benefits us, actually, and it benefits other folks, you know, I was watching a movie recently. I’m gonna mess it, leave the world behind. It just came out on Netflix. Oh, I haven’t seen it. I put it I’ll put it on my list. It was really good, okay? And so mahersha, Mahershala, Oh, I love okay. And he said, There’s a quote in there, and I literally stopped the movie and wrote it down. And he says, Nothing in this world scares me more than someone unwilling to learn, even at their own expense. Oh, yes. And I thought, You know what? That. Just that’s everything about how I feel about learning and development, and how you need to be able to apply it to your life, and being able to be curious and not handcuffed by having to do things that’s so good,

 

Amber Cabral  45:10

because think about how many people we have right now that have a lot of power, a lot saying things that really indicate that you’re unwilling to evolve. Yes, and that’s that is terrifying. Yeah, it really is. For people who want to have kids, for people who are trying to, like, you know, think about what the next 1020, years of their life will be as it relates to working with others. Yeah, that is very frightening. I might have to hide aspects of my identity that are just me, right, because this person’s like, all over the internet talking terribly, and they have all this influence that’s a lot to consider. And

 

Micheal Price  45:40

like I said before, I think people reach a point in their lives where they feel like, Oh, I’m done. I know everything I’m supposed to know that is never, never you are learning until the day you die, absolutely continue if you’re doing it right, if you’re doing it right, right, if you’re doing it right. And I’ve been privileged enough to be able to live a life where I get to just constantly learn I love that, you know, and that’s um, now a lot of people get that. A lot of people are placed in certain positions because of their circumstance, and they just have to do and I respect that, yeah, but I am very lucky, and that’s a privilege I haven’t really thought about. So thank you for asking me, Amber, because it’s obviously impacted a huge part of my life. It’s why I do what I do. I’m a learning and development for this, exactly. So, yeah, yeah. Thanks for that. Well, thanks for joining me on the podcast. Of course. Thank you for inviting me. This has been fun. It has been it’s been great. These lights are really highlighting your eyes.

 

Amber Cabral  46:30

Listen, I really feel like I need to just walk around with a lot. I think you should. I mean, that’s I’m working on it. It’s coming.

 

46:35

You.