SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, feedback, feel, black owned business, conversation, navigate, white, wrong, question, absolutely, privilege, person, work, black, owned, space, good, coffee shop, business, endure

SPEAKERS

Amber Cabral, Jessica Hurley

 

Jessica Hurley  00:00

And I will read down this list of something that I just doesn’t feel right in my soul, which you have said on this podcast, you need to be able to be clear in your gut. Where

 

Amber Cabral  00:08

is your gut? Where is your gut, where’s your gut? Privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes, where you live, the places you frequent, your network capital, and even how you spend your money, it’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege. Welcome back to another episode of guilty privilege. My name is Amber Cabral, and today I get to have a conversation in sort of a robust one, with the person who makes these podcasts even happen. Jessica Hurley is actually the founder of epic network, and she helps put all this magical stuff together so that we can transfer information to you. And she asked me a few questions and tosses some plants at me in this in this conversation,

 

Jessica Hurley  01:07

I would say, so we talk about, well, one I give you flowers, the flowers that I think you deserve, and thank you for standing in the gap in I always tell people last year, you were my secret weapon. You were and you just You deserve it the way you have standed in the gap and extended yourself. We talk about navigating my privilege and how in the in the sphere of knowing you for two years, it took me that long to recognize it and figure out how to stand in it and just ask some hard questions and navigate a hard conversation that I think more people really need to hear.

 

Amber Cabral  01:38

Yeah, so tap in. Hey,

 

Jessica Hurley  01:41

Amber,

 

Amber Cabral  01:42

how are you? I’m good. I’m really excited about this conversation. Actually, we’ve done this before, yeah, but it was like it was, it was a different it was a different setting, it was a different environment, and it was specifically for your podcast,

 

Jessica Hurley  01:53

specifically for rich and real life, right? Which is a theme you live by,

 

Amber Cabral  01:56

by the way. Oh, for sure, very much. So, yeah, absolutely.

 

Jessica Hurley  01:58

So there’s a couple things. One, thank you

 

Amber Cabral  02:01

for having me, of course. I mean, come on,

 

Jessica Hurley  02:05

a couple things I want to cover with you, but I think the best place to start is here, and I’ll try not to send you into a span, but I want to say thank you so much for who you are and how you show up in the world and how you show up for me, because something I think about your theme for the podcast, which is all about recognizing your privilege, and then you know, really ally should be in the action of it. I don’t feel guilty anymore about having access to you. Like, oh, wow,

 

Amber Cabral  02:43

that’s good. I feel guilty about having access.

 

Jessica Hurley  02:47

It felt unreal. It felt like the one of the most I know last year, one of the most valuable resources I had access to was you the way that

 

Amber Cabral  02:57

feels good. Y’all be taking notes on how to compliment somebody.

 

Jessica Hurley  03:05

I raved about you, if you have ever talked to me, and the way that I’ve explained you is like you are the people’s champ. You are the secret weapon that I had. You are so many things to me and the witch, the way that helped me advocate for myself in business and helped me advocate for myself on a personal level. Obviously, we both know this. As an entrepreneur, you everything that you do in your business bleeds into your personal life, and everything you did personal life bleeds into your business. You

 

Amber Cabral  03:33

have no choice. That’s how it goes. You have no choice. And this is something

 

Jessica Hurley  03:37

that I have always struggled with, is even though I can be creative and create my life the way that I desire. I still constantly question myself and my value and when to say no and how to say no, and I still have that like recovering people pleasing desire paired with I need to say yes to everything, because what if I don’t continue to get those opportunities? What

 

Amber Cabral  03:59

a scarcity mindset. What do you mean the world is, do you know it’s 8 billion people. You think everybody gonna tell you? No, no, yeah. So like, why even, like, manufacture the concept of, like, oh my gosh, what if I don’t get another opportunity? Do you understand, like, the abundance that is simply available just by you existing at this time,

 

Jessica Hurley  04:20

plus, as simple as it sounds, the more that I have said no, the better the opportunities absolutely that have been replaced with that absolutely,

 

Amber Cabral  04:28

because what you allow you teach. So by you saying yes to something, you are teaching the universe that that that’s what you want more of. So if you, if you keep saying yes to this thing, and you complain about it. Universe like, oh, okay, but you took it. You took it. I’m gonna send you another one of those. You seem to enjoy that you talked about it a lot. You build some relationships around it, toxic maybe, but you you engage. But when you say no, well now you’re teaching the universe that that’s not what you want. So now I gotta send you something else.

 

Jessica Hurley  04:59

Yes, all I hear is someone’s listening to this and thinking the same thing I thought, which is, I’ve definitely done that relationships too, absolutely. That’s why I got that. Oh okay, yeah, all right, that’s why I got sidetracked for X amount of years,

 

Amber Cabral  05:13

three of those. Okay, I remember that. Yeah, that’s it.

 

Jessica Hurley  05:17

And standing in that, in business has been one of the hardest things ever. And you gave me the courage, you gave me the words. And I want to make clear anyone listening that that is probably one of the most valuable things you’re going to get out of this podcast is listening to how you use words. Yeah, power of them. Yeah. And I have always been afraid to hurt people’s feelings. Say no to things. How do I say it properly without pissing someone off, or obviously making no opportunities available to me again, or people talking about me or and the way that you have helped me use my words,

 

Amber Cabral  05:51

yeah, free yourself from all that. And

 

Jessica Hurley  05:54

asked me the right questions, and I want to say this part, asked me the right asked me to ask myself the right questions. And I think when people say, learn how to write, ask yourself the right questions, we get really confused. There’s a locking we get really confused to think that these have to be really hard in depth questions that you need to be able to pull from your core. Every time that I have ever reached out to you. One you always make yourself, self available,

 

Amber Cabral  06:22

yeah, but you have, you have good reasons, like, because everybody, I can’t be available for everybody. But when people reach out and they said with a purpose, I know when it’s like a person that has a purpose, right? So, yeah, I do try to be available, for sure.

 

Jessica Hurley  06:35

And I will read down this list of something that I just doesn’t feel right in my soul, which you have said on this podcast, you need to be able to be clear in your

 

Amber Cabral  06:43

gut. Where is your gut? Where is your gut? Where’s your gut?

 

Jessica Hurley  06:46

I will read down this whole thing. And poor thing, you will listen to me for 25 minutes, and then you will ask me the same question,

 

Amber Cabral  06:53

is that what you really want? Like, do you actually want to do this? Is this what you actually want? And you always pause and go, Oh, I I don’t know. You’re like, I don’t think so. And I’m like, there’s a lot of energy for something you don’t even

 

Jessica Hurley  07:09

want. And then you will continue to pander, which is like, how does this benefit you? Yeah, why do you think you need this and

 

Amber Cabral  07:16

why does it have to come this way? Do you not think you can get the same thing with another route. What are you looking there a more beneficial approach to attaining this thing? Why are you even entertaining the conversation? What about it has you engaged enough to even consider having a conversation about something your body has said no to because sometimes we do that, we’re like, Oh, I’m gonna entertain this. And your entire being is like, you do it anyway, you’re like, I’m still entertaining it. Like, when that happens, that means you need to ask what it is about it that you want. And sometimes it’s like, oh, I just really want to be in this community, or I just really want to build a relationship with this one person that I know is going to be there or whatever. But it doesn’t have to mean you have to sacrifice yourself to get that. There will be another route. So now, you know, I want that thing. Let me work toward that thing. Instead of it being I’m going to sacrifice myself. And I’m not even clear why.

 

Jessica Hurley  08:07

You don’t have to sacrifice yourself to get the thing that you want, but you need to be clear about the thing that you want. You

 

Amber Cabral  08:13

1. You need to be clear about the thing that you want. You need to have clarity also about what your limits are, because that’s the thing too. We’ll say yes to things, and it’ll feel funny, but we’ll feel like, well, I mean, I know I gotta work hard, and I know it might be, you know, uncomfortable and so, but sometimes that’s not just your like, fear of discomfort. It’s your like, actual alarm system saying, like, not this, this is not it. And when that goes off, you have to honor that, or some of the repercussions of not

 

Jessica Hurley  08:44

the way, this year, I didn’t end up for the first time in situations because of this very thing and this question and these conversations and the training of it. You You have said another episode that you’re you, what was it your godfather that asked you over and over again? Is that what you want? Yes, and because you have now trained me because of repetitive conversations on this. This feels like the first year that I didn’t put myself in situations where I had to go and we have all done this before, or I had to I said yes to something. I’m partial or halfway through it, and I’m like, why am I doing terrible? I hate this. How is this the work that I chose? Why is this a life I created that I chose because I’m so uncomfortable, I am so angry, and learning the difference in this process, because of working with working with you, in some of these things, I learned the difference between discomfort and misalignment, absolutely

 

Amber Cabral  09:33

and there is that. It takes a second to get clear about that, because both of them kind of like, set your body into like, this trigger mode, and you’re like, Okay, wait, is this the wrong thing, or am I just not like supposed to do it at all? Like, is this the wrong approach? Or am I just supposed to disengage altogether that sometimes can be hard to read. Am I

 

Jessica Hurley  09:52

being made uncomfortable for the purposes of growth? Yes. Is this messing with my ego because I need to stretch myself a little bit, or is this just completely missing? The line you knew in your gut from the time you made this decision, and because you made a decision against it, you are now paying the price exactly.

 

Amber Cabral  10:05

I always say, Is this a circumstance where I am putting myself in a position to evolve, or I am being eroded? Like, that’s this is is one or the other. If I’m not evolving, because evolution is uncomfortable, it just is. And so, like, you will get those alarms, and you’ll be like, Ooh, this is gonna be a lot, you know? Lot, you know, whatever. I’m gonna feel stretched. But like, you can usually point to, like, what the clear outcomes are. You can usually go like, I know I’m going to get this out of this. It’s gonna be tough, but this is the outcome. But when it’s really just like, I’m being eroded, it’s almost like, Okay, how much of this do I have to suffer until? How much of this do I have to take until I get to, like, when it starts to feel like, that’s what it is, then that’s, that’s deterioration. That’s you tearing me down, that’s, that’s, that’s your this erosion of character. And I’m not, I don’t want to participate in that. So I’m like, Yeah, nope, not doing that. Thanks. I’m good, yeah. And it will be replaced absolutely every time. And it will be replaced every day better, every single time, every single time

 

Jessica Hurley  11:07

I have to add something. I have to add something to this too, because something else that you made me realize was really, really around my value and that how much more of this? Do you need to do? How much more of this do you need to see about what you do? Like, get your get yourself a friend like this or something, or a mentor. Because there has been so many times where you’re like, do you see what you do? Do you know what you’re doing? Like, do you see how many people you have done this with? Do you see the volume or the value you provide, or the value of the people you’re, you know, and it’s, it’s, it’s not this ego, like you will make me line out because I see they work. And you’re like, why are you questioning yourself? So

 

Amber Cabral  11:51

the problem with high achievers, I think, and this isn’t just you, but I think high achievers in general, is that what happens is, because we are high achieving, we are around other high achieving people. And what all of us are doing is focusing on, what are we doing to get better? What do I need to do to improve? How do I get tighter? How do I, you know, reduce expenses? How do I impact more? How do and so you’re almost in this community of like, better, faster, more, right? And so you don’t ever stop and realize, like, has the average person done a fraction of what I’m doing right? And if the answer is they haven’t, then I should at the very least acknowledge, yo, I might be okay, like I’m doing well, let me rest in like, the fact that I do have some accolade that doesn’t mean I don’t still want to pursue or get Yes, yes, you still can want that, but like, there has to be, because I’m guilty of that too, where it’s almost like, I don’t, you just don’t see your you lose sight of yourself because you are after something, and you’re like, well, yo, I want this. And because I don’t have that, I must not be what I think. You know, people are perceiving me as or I have no awareness of the value I’m actually adding because I want this thing, but you do have to. And I have people in my life that do this as well. Amanda, perfect example, she does this for me all the time, where it’s like, yeah, I want you to understand you’re amazing. Have you seen all of this? Have you seen you? And I’m like, Oh, actually, I hadn’t looked at that. You know, because you get, you can get completely consumed by the outside of your body. Yes, absolutely.

 

Jessica Hurley  13:26

And I want to highlight that it is not you teach constructive feedback. And what I love like that, I would say that’s probably one of the biggest lessons on my entrepreneurship journey has been

 

Amber Cabral  13:38

just receiving card feedback. Yep, ask for it.

 

Jessica Hurley  13:42

And what is this? Is sound this just like, sounds such, like such a beautiful conversation, like you’re just so great, and you just, but you also stop me every time and you’re like, Hey, do you know what would make this even better? Absolutely, every

 

Amber Cabral  13:53

single time I give you some feedback, yeah, every single and it’s great. I think it’s great I have a great experience, like I did a second season, because I had a great experience the first season. So like, I, it’s, it’s, yeah, but I still have feedback, and you would benefit from it. Absolutely, that’s the thing, is you benefit from it. So like, I, I tell people all the time, like it, people are like, Oh, how can I get more comfortable with feedback? I’m like, Well, I don’t know the comfort is the goal. Like, I don’t know that it’s, I don’t think it’s ever going to be like, oh, please give me all the feedback. But I think at some point you will see the value, right? And so I want relationships, and I want people in my life that are like, Oh, this is valuable for Amber. So even though it might sting a little bit, I want to still give it to her. And I want to be the person in other folks’ life that will do the same thing, like, where you know it’s I know that I’m going to get the truth here. I can trust that I’m going to get some healthy feedback. I can rely on, you know, the fact that this isn’t going to be someone that’s going to just sit back and, like, watch me struggle, fumble whatever, and not be like. So you do realize, if you did it this way, you might have a better path. You know, is this enough? You know? Like, I want that, and I want to create the kind of cyclical you. You know, environment where I get it back, and I’m clear that it’s not gonna always feel bad, it’s feel good, and sometimes, sometimes I’m gonna get mad. Sometimes I’m gonna get mad. I’m gonna get mad at the feedback. I’m gonna go, I might bark back at you a little bit, like, get a little defensive. Yeah, I might, I might, you know, I’m somebody in the grand scheme of things. I’m gonna usually circle back around and be like, you know, I really appreciate you even engaging me. Because engaging me, because I just, I think there’s a couple things about this that kind of stick out to me. The first thing is, I think that, like, we have to realize that life is not ever going to be completely happy. I think we try to build this like idea in our mind, yes, that like, you can literally get to a point where your world is literally sunshine, clouds and rainbows, and it’s never going to be just that there. There’s always the opposite side, there’s always the tough stuff. There’s always the things that are the ugly underbelly. People die, you know, jobs, you know change, and leaders evolve. And like, you know cities, you know, change. We have climate change. Like the Earth is changing, like everything is going to, you know, have some shifts, and those shifts are going to impact in some ways that we may not love. And so we have to get really okay with the fact that, like, there’s going to be some unhappiness, there’s going to be some frustration. I’m going to argue with you, right? We’re going to, like, yell at each other at some point, but we can still be valuable and have relationship, and like, you know, work toward something that’s very rich and connective, like both, you know, in a one on one sense, like you and I, but like, in a broader sense, this is a thing, like, How much better would the world be if we just really stop feeding kids, this idea that everything is joyful, like, have You looked at like kids television. It’s like, all positive programming. There’s like, very little resistance that happens. And I’m like, you have to, kind of like, set kids expectations that there will be things they have to wait for. There will be things that are going to be hard, right? Yes, and so like, and I think without that, we end up with this generation full of people that are like, shrink I don’t think I’m good enough, or people that are like, well, you should just be giving this to me, because you know what I mean. And that’s and neither of those are how any of this works. And so like, we arguments are normal. Stop believing the Tiktok hype that, like, you should never argue with people like, that’s wrong. I

 

Jessica Hurley  17:17

would venture to say that the feedback that I have gotten from my clients is more valuable than any mentorship I’ve ever paid probably hands down, because you can actually change I have ever made has been because of feedback from a client, exactly, and it has always made the experience better, which has allowed me to increase my value. Yes, yes.

 

Amber Cabral  17:37

I mean, I, you know, because I chair brown girls do ballet. So we often talk about how every idea that we launched came from the community. We got it from a brown ballerina, and it was a brown ballerina saying, so, you know, we really need, we could use. And so we started to say, okay, oh, wow, that’s a great idea. Let’s do it, right? Let’s make it happen. But if we weren’t listening, if we weren’t open to the feedback, we wouldn’t, I mean, brown girls wouldn’t be making an impact. We wouldn’t be as, you know, as recognized and supportive and and actually, you know, be able to function and do the things that we as an organization have set forth to do if we were not open to that. Yeah, feedback is super critical. It’s a big, big deal, and it’s one of the things that like. What happens, I think, with most people, is they get taught one side of it. You get taught that you should expect feedback, and you get taught that in a very consistent way. And you also get taught that, like you should also kind of shut up about it and shrink a little bit. This is what school kind of looks like, you know. You you do a thing, you blah, blah, you turn it in, you get feedback, right in the form of a grade, potentially in a form of progress report, you know? But like, that’s kind of the system. We don’t really do a good job of creating systems where people are expected to give the feedback, and so those of us, who do we kind of get looked at. Like, sometimes I’ve had people call me a complainer, and I’m like, I’m not complaining. I just think this could be better, like this. I’m not. There’s I’m not saying that I don’t want it. I’m not, you know, I’m saying that there’s opportunity here for IT to improve. Like, why wouldn’t we want things to get better? And so, but that’s because we just are not set up in such a way that, like, feedback is even expected or encouraged. And so sometimes what even happens with feedback is, when it’s time to give, give it, people will hype themselves up so much for a potential argument that they come to the conversation mad, and I’m like, Hey, why are you mad? I’m just here to hear the feedback. What’s up? Because people don’t know how and so, like, that’s one of the biggest things that I think happens with feedback, is like, we don’t learn it. We don’t learn that there’s supposed to be resistance, that there’s supposed to be discomfort, that you’re supposed to navigate, that that you’re supposed to tell people the things we learn, that when we get feedback, we’re supposed to take it and tuck it and be like I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode, and if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations, to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called. Allies and advocates. And this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful ally. It has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there, both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say more about that. Now. Say more about that is more about helping you to speak up, to push back, to challenge, to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult, and in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things, you can go pick up those books anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there, back to the episode. So I think

 

Jessica Hurley  20:39

this is a really good opportunity before we kind of shift the conversation. Is for you to give some examples, because I’m to the point now where, like, when it comes to me, especially from you and a lot of people that I work with, it’s I almost I get excited. It’s like, priceless. Like, I’m like, I’m about to get something for free that will probably change my life or business. Like, tell me all the things. And I think it has so much to do with your tone and the way that you say it. It never sounds like, let me sit down and shrink my shoulders because I’m about to get told about how I didn’t do something well, it is like, Hey, I experienced this from a different lens, and I bet you didn’t see how you could make this better. Yeah. So I think, is there any ways that you could say how you typically give feedback? Yeah?

 

Amber Cabral  21:17

I mean, you know, they have the model, right? The model is, you know, the sandwich perspective. And I do think that that’s useful. I do think it’s good to kind of make sure that you let people feel good before you give them bad and then feel good before they leave. Like, I think that’s a helpful fundamental thing. My biggest thing about giving feedback is the same as it is with like showing up as an ally or building relationships. I think you need to, like, be able to read the room, and some people are better at it than others, but you can grow in that space by practicing it. So like, I need to know the best way for me to give you feedback, and I need to know that the way that I give you feedback may not be the best way for me to give someone else feedback. And then simultaneously, if you value someone’s feedback, you have to make space for them to be able to give it in a way that works, right? So there’s this marriage that kind of has to happen where it’s like, I get big and passionate, right? And so you have to be okay with the fact that I’m gonna, I’m gonna swell up, you know, saying, like my peacock feathers are out, like, I’m just, I’m gonna, it’s gonna be a big person. I’m passionate about it, if I care about you, the louder, there you go, right? So, like, it’s prone to happen, like, I’m going to be very expressive. It may have been really scary for the first time. I think it’s probably intimidating for a lot of people, and I’m not even necessarily aware of it when it happens, but that’s part of like me, and so there has to be this marriage of like, you making space for me to be that, but also being like, okay, I can probably deal with that, but I need to know that you’ll be respectful. I need to know that you need to know that you are this isn’t an attack, you know. And so sometimes I have to say when I feel that coming, hey, I have something I really want to share, and I just need to know if I can just get it out, you know. So, like, for me, I think my point is that we have to think about feedback as something that if we want someone to get it, we’ve got to give it the way that they need it. This is something that my boyfriend says to me all the time because, like, because he’s around me all the time, sometimes I’m just like, Yeah, but he’s like, that’s, that’s not helpful for me, you know. But he’s right, like, it’s better when I plant something, you know, I deliver to him a certain way. And then he has a really good example happen in his life, and he notices it, and then he’ll come back to me and say, hey, you know what I noticed? Blah, blah, blah. And I always want to be like, did you notice that, or did I tell you, right? But like, the point is that that there’s something about the way he needs it. And so the best formula that I think people can use is being intentional about in the moment and in the experience that you’re in, what does that person need? What does that relationship need? And if you happen to be in a circumstance where you don’t know that, you can ask, I would like to share some feedback with you. Are you open to that? Is now a good time? Can we set up some time to have some feedback? If now’s not good, like, if you can do that, then you know people at least can kind of prime themselves, because automatically you say feedback to somebody, they’re like, I did something wrong, right? I’m nervous, right, right? And, you like, and it might not even be like that, but like, at least, you know that they’re kind of readying, right? And so then you can kind of go into the conversation and kind of do it that way. I you know, I think that’s the best way. I don’t know, you know, outside of, like, the sandwich approach. You know that there is another way to really, it’s still gonna suck if it’s bad, it’s still gonna be like, you know, really, really great if it’s good, you know. So you both things, you’re not avoiding that, you know, it’s but putting yourself in a position to hear it is really key. And I think people should ask for it a lot more, a lot more, a lot more you should be

 

Jessica Hurley  24:42

having feedback. You can literally beat people to the pawn shop, yes, and get the feedback that you need that is literally invaluable from your customers, your clients, all of the things.

 

Amber Cabral  24:50

And the other thing you do by asking is you you set people up to expect that you are interested, and so even if they don’t have it now. They’ll come back later and say, you know, I was thinking about blah blah blah blah, blah, blah blah, yes. And now I have this idea I’d like to share with you. So it’s, it’s, there’s your create your relationship building. Feedback is a great relationship building too, because people want to know that you care about their thoughts.

 

Jessica Hurley  25:18

Priceless. Not only now that you’re saying this, not only have you stood in the gap for me by extending yourself, it’s just, it’s just beautiful and priceless to have someone that is ahead of you and has more experience. So if I’m ahead of you, you have way, you have greater relationships that you have extended to me. You have, you just have more experience than me.

 

Amber Cabral  25:39

I mean, maybe, okay, I guess I’ll permit it. Okay, check I’m a little older, maybe. So, yeah, okay,

 

Jessica Hurley  25:47

so you’ve stood in the gap in that way, you have given me the space to never ask a dumb question. But also, I think what is so beautiful, and this is where we’re gonna shift the perspective a little bit, is I’ve been able to ask really silly questions, like the one I asked you this morning. Oh,

 

Amber Cabral  26:04

yeah. I was like, what? It’s okay, it’s a good question, though.

 

Jessica Hurley  26:09

In navigating that, since I’ve met you over the last two years, is that I’ve just wanted to become better in the way that I navigate the world. Yeah, when it comes to I want, when it comes that, like, how can I navigate this better my day to day? Because this is something that you and I talk about on end. This is something that I get to be immersed in, having access to you and your books and having conversations with you and your content, being your friend and helping you produce your podcast. And so I get to come to you as I try to navigate being better at this with questions that I don’t even know. Who else I would ask these questions, I can

 

Amber Cabral  26:40

see that. I think a lot of people ask me things that they’re like, I don’t know who else to ask this. I

 

Jessica Hurley  26:44

can see that. And it’s you practice what you teach Absolutely. But it was a

 

Amber Cabral  26:49

good you gave me some good perspective with that question. Like, I was like, this is like, I’m gonna wait till you tell what the question was. But like, I feel like in the moment, I was like, Huh, okay, I appreciate that you are thinking about this, but I’m a little surprised that this is a question, because I would have no way of knowing if you didn’t share it with me, I would have no way of knowing that this is a thing that I could add to the arsenal of tools that I share with people when I know that they’re like, I’m nervous about navigating in this space. Am I doing it right? Like, I mean, you basically gave me a really powerful example to use. Like, yo, figure out what’s okay, you know. And like, so I needed it just as much as you you know, you needed to know. Ultimately, it’s a tool. Now, it’s a tool, right? So

 

Jessica Hurley  27:33

here was my question. I today was a friend of ours referred a coffee shop down the street from this location I go to the location I go in, there’s nothing that makes me happier period than a small business being run well, and just seeing people happy, and you can tell that they’re friends and their family and all the things. This particular coffee shop is clearly a black owned coffee shop. It is completely staffed. Everyone was so warm, so welcoming. It was the cutest location. The coffee was great. The sandwich was great. This is at 7am yeah, I immediately, as I do, take a video while I’m in there, and I’m like, I have to post this. Like, this is adorable. The girl and I had a conversation behind the desk. And I write as I’m typing the text, the font on my video, I put the cutest black owned coffee shop, black owned business. And I go to post it, and I’m like, I don’t know if I can say that. I don’t know if that’s appropriate for me. And so I just removed it and I said the cutest small business, or I wrote the cutest small coffee shop, and repost and posted it. And when I came in, I like, when to walk passion. I was like, Hey, wait, I have a question. And I was like, I wanted to just glow about this adorable, black owned coffee shop. And I was like, and then I felt so inappropriate saying that

 

Amber Cabral  28:47

I didn’t ask you this in the moment, but like, Do you know why you felt inappropriate?

 

Jessica Hurley  28:53

Because I’m not black,

 

Amber Cabral  28:55

so it’s so interesting, like,

 

Jessica Hurley  28:59

but you would and what would someone say to me? Would I offend anyone that is black

 

Amber Cabral  29:03

by calling something black owned like the Do I have the what is the alarm? Though? What is the alarm? Because what you’re essentially doing is just calling out this is owned by a black person. Where is the alarm going off? Do you know where? No, yeah. Like, I think that’s worth querying. Can I offend someone by saying something’s black owned No. Somebody who doesn’t want to frequent a black owned plays might be like, I’m not going there. But like, other than that, no, no. So like, for me, I was like, yeah, absolutely. And in fact, not only do I think you should do it, I think that it’s a benefit when white people will say, this is a black owned thing. I loved it. I recommend it, right? You know, and you don’t necessarily have to lead with that. Like, hey, black owned business, blah blah blah blah, blah, blah blah, right? Like you are, oh, I am frequenting black owned businesses this month. Like, I think that could be very performative. That’s

 

Jessica Hurley  29:54

what it was. It felt like, am I being performative in this no,

 

Amber Cabral  29:57

if someone’s gonna be like, why? You know? Idea it’s not like our friend came in and told us yesterday, oh, it’s a black owned coffee shop, no. And you were like, Oh, it’s a, she was like, It’s a cute, good coffee shop. You should go, you know? And so you went in, and you’re like, yes. And then you’re like, Oh, it is black owned, right? Which is great. That is, that’s it felt celebratory.

 

Jessica Hurley  30:13

But then I was like, Is this performing?

 

Amber Cabral  30:15

It is not. It is not. It would be fantastic if more white folks were like, I frequent this candle shop. It’s amazing. I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it’s a black owned business. I think that that we can normalize saying it’s a black owned business. That doesn’t have to be a thing that only black people say. And I think that people saying it’s a black owned business would be great, especially because we know there aren’t enough of them, and there, there aren’t enough of them that are surviving and doing well, right? Like, we have a lot of circumstances where they’re not getting funded appropriately. Yes, you know, lots of black owned businesses start and are closed within the first five years because they can’t afford it, because they don’t have what they need from the community in terms of investment and resource and all kinds of reasons. So like, yeah, tell people cute black owned coffee shop. You should go right and, and you being white should not be a part of the decision to say that, if anything, it is an additional expansion of the information. Like, oh yes, we serve white people too, which, that doesn’t seem like it needs to be a thing that has to be said. But like, yeah, like, it’s coffee, it’s cute, and by the way, we’re also black owned business, you know, like, you know, again, I think the only way it really is performative is if you were like, Hey, I am white girl, Jessica, and I’m going to go frequent black owned businesses and give you my review

 

Jessica Hurley  31:36

right now, that

 

Amber Cabral  31:36

feels performative, because it’s like a girl, what? Like, why? Why do we need you to give us a seal of approval, that that’s performative, that feels inappropriate, right? That feels like it’s, it’s putting on, you know, a bit of a show, right? And even though you may, in your mind, have been like, you know, someone who might do that, might feel like they’re being well intending, but like, no, that’s, I’m good, not the right way to do it, you know. But versus, you know, I stumbled across something. It’s great, by the way, it’s black owned, you know. And there are several brands that, like, you know, we don’t necessarily even know they’re black owned, and then when we find out, we’re like, oh my gosh, that’s amazing, that it’s black owned. So it’s like, right? Yeah, that’s, that’s great. But, like, what it did for me in the moment was, go, Wow, are we isolating? Are we cornering blackness? Like, and here’s the thing. And, like, I do think that like, culture is, you know, a thing. There’s the culture is a very interesting thing. First we have to share it. We want to share it. That’s how it grows. It’s essential. Like, you know, culture evolves. And so, like, to some degree, some of the offense about, you know, people participating in things that black people do. Like, you know, when you hear folks flipping out about folks listening to black music. It’s like, I mean, come on, it’s music like, right? It moves the culture forward in whatever way. Now, we do still think people should be respectful of, you know, certain lyrics and, you know, be very mindful of, like, certain messaging, you know, like, it’s probably not appropriate for you to say certain things that will pop up in black music, right? But I still think it’s something that people should enjoy, and it is a culture product, and in some ways problematic, right? But then the flip side of that is that, like, nobody thinks about it twice. If it’s, I don’t know, a white artist, you have been like, I went to this concert, you might have said, not said it’s white on but it’s not because, you know, that’s it. The reason you’re not saying is because that’s not a rare thing. It’s the reason you’re not saying it is because we are not as concerned about white businesses surviving. We are not as we are not putting ourselves in positions where we have to be immersed in the experiences that white businesses are having, because they’re the majority, right? They’re the ones that are thriving and being invested in and, you know, and in the ways that they’re scammy. When someone White does a thing, it doesn’t represent all of white people. We’re like, that person’s weird, right? And so, but then when it’s blackness, it’s like, you know, one person does something wrong, and it’s like, oh, well, you know, black men, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. And so, like, so I almost wondered, like, as I was processing, like, Oh, are we, like, cornering into some degree, you know, like protecting blackness in a way that you would have even felt like that. That’s why I queried it. Like, why do you think that was a thing? Like, why do you think it was a thing? Because I would say no. Now I also will add this, there are people that feel like, you know, there are too many white folks in black folks business in general. And so there, you know, there’s always going to be the possibility of some feedback. That’s of some feedback that’s like, you don’t say that, you know, like, that’s going to happen. You know, I make a point sometimes to highlight when I see all white things that I think should not be. I have some luggage I love. I went to the brand website, all white folks. Went to the brand Instagram, all white folks. I commented, do you notice that everyone here is white? I’m not like your luggage. Just want to know if you’ve considered that three months later, that was no longer the case. They didn’t reply to my comment. They didn’t message me, they didn’t delete it. Adjustment. They adjusted so like, I think. Sometimes we have to be, you know. Maybe the question is, like, what is my intent with this message? And your intent was, like, this is cute, and yo, also, versus, plus, oh my God, look what the black people can do, you know, which is when we’re like, simmer, calm down. I don’t know if y’all would have coffee, right? It was not for us, you know. So, like, it like, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s the, it’s the intention and the framing that’s really gonna play the biggest part. And and knowing that, like, you know, there might be somebody that’s like, Hmm, but, like, no, that’s appropriate. And, and needed, and needed. I mean, think about it. You’ve got big brands now that are intentionally, openly saying, We are partnering with this black, owned business. Now they’re doing it for a reason that is very different than your reason, but that’s acceptable. Why wouldn’t it be acceptable for you? Hey, there. I hope you’re enjoying the episode, and, in fact, if you are, you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living. I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate allyship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together, you can reach out to me@cabraco.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call, and we will chat with you soon. Back to the show.

 

Jessica Hurley  36:22

I think it’s so neat to highlight that in our last episode on my show, we talked a lot about endured endured skepticism. And just like you will be met with skepticism,

 

Amber Cabral  36:32

you will be, you will be, and I met with it constantly. People assume all kinds of things about me, just simply because I exist in this container. So when I enter into a myriad of spaces, people meet me with resistance and skepticism just because I happen to be a black woman. And so there is, you know, the you can see it. I see it on Zoom calls. You know, when people reach out to us and, you know, they haven’t done their back end research, you know, sometimes people book calls for other folks. And so that person gets on and they’re like, Oh, fun. Hair. Got it, you know. Like, I can tell when the reaction is like, wow, okay, I, you know, I can tell when people are trying to figure out if I’m a lesbian or not. I can tell and so, like, they’re, you know, yes. And we have to, generally speaking, we, we all have to get really good at it. But I think, I think white people really need to get better at enduring the skepticism that comes along with existing. You know, where we are working towards creating equity. You’re going to encounter things you haven’t seen before, and when you show up there, we’re gonna go, what you doing?

 

Jessica Hurley  37:35

And you need to be okay to stand in it, yeah, oh, I was

 

Amber Cabral  37:38

just going to coffee shop up the street. It was cute. You should go, yeah, that’s, that’s part of it. Like that, that is part of it. And I, if I’m being honest, I think a lot of times the reason why white people aren’t willing to be allies is because they don’t know how to deal with that. Like, I think most people would never have come back to me and asked the question like, I think most people would have been like, I’m just gonna say cute coffee shop, which is not shop, which is nothing wrong with that, right? But I think more people should query, why didn’t I choose to say this? I did, and people don’t.

 

Jessica Hurley  38:10

When I left, I was like, Why do you feel that way? You don’t feel that way about any other part of your life. Why do you feel that way? And then, oh, look at the like. The privilege I have is that I have access to you. So ask the question, take advantage of it. Solve, Solve the problem exactly. Can you say this? And if you can now, you know, moving forward, because I partake in a lot of black owned businesses, absolutely. How can I now extend my act like my access to them, right? And if, for whatever reason, I have felt like I couldn’t right, I need to fix that. So I,

 

Amber Cabral  38:41

in my mind, like even thinking about what you do, about what you do and who you serve and who you do it for, right, in my mind, it would almost prompt me to say, Oh, wow. One of the things I would like to do is, when I am in you know, these cities, I am going to try to make sure I have a list of black owned businesses that I tap first for the things I typically need. So if it’s Furniture Rental, if it’s catering, if it’s coffee, if it’s you know, like, I feel like you’re in a and that doesn’t have to be afraid do that. I just don’t think about right? And here’s the thing that’s great, and you don’t have to announce it, but that is the kind of thing people need. But if you are going to say because you are in a position where people are paying attention to who you are, how you show up, what your messaging is going to be when there’s a chance to highlight it, absolutely. Do it. Do it. I have no problem when people are like, Oh, it’s a women owned business. I always say black woman owned I’m a black woman owned business. If, if there’s a problem with that, y’all better send this to your friend. I am the wrong person. Okay, I’m the wrong person. So it there’s, you know, that endured skepticism thing is so big, like, so many people are just like, I don’t want to take the risk. I don’t take the risk and be wrong, like, and that’s, it’s the biggest hindrance. You teach willing to be wrong, you got to be willing to be

 

Jessica Hurley  39:55

wrong. I knew when I asked you, this is either really, really wrong or I’m really, really wrong. Yeah, flatter. Figure out which one it is, because if you just stand in it, you’re not going to do it exactly.

 

Amber Cabral  40:03

And we had some follow up conversation to that, like, we talked about a little bit about just generally, like, you know, like white folks in their proximity to black folks, like, and how those relationships can kind of show up. Because I think that, you know, black people generally have gotten to a place where we’re very skeptical of white people for good reason in this country, especially, right? So, like, there’s there are layers, too many. There are layers, yes, and if we are going to exist together, and here’s the thing, everybody still gets to make their choices. You get to choose those in your life. No one’s telling you, you need to go down a list and say, I have three Asian people. Please don’t right? I think that this person’s queer and, like, we that’s not helpful. But I do think, you know, it is worth it to have awareness of some of the things that can be a rub, that are, you know, potentially a conflict, that are disruptive to the connection. And, like, reality is racist part of that. So, you know, one of the things we talked about was, like, you know, this is the thing that I think a lot of black folks don’t necessarily say out loud. But like, black folks are skeptical of white women because there’s been a plethora of stories about I was cool, this white girl, we was cool. Life was good. Everything was great. But the minute, I needed her to, like, stand in her whiteness and back me up on something she ain’t nothing to say, Yeah, I need you to black own business me now, now is the time ringing the bell, right? And so it has created almost this, like, cultural distance, where it’s like, some folks will get closer than others, some folks you know will not get close at all. But there’s a little bit of, like, I am skeptical about even why you’re here, so I’m gonna either choose to not engage, or I’m gonna engage to a point, right? And like, I think it’s good for you to know that, because it helps you to know what you’re navigating as you are trying to build trust across multicultural relationships.

 

Jessica Hurley  41:49

I think it’s good for everyone. Yeah, know that everybody. It’s

 

Amber Cabral  41:52

important for me to know that people are going to receive me a certain way, so that I can navigate that as I am navigating the relationship. So this is the same application, whether it’s about race or not, I need, I need to know that when I go to certain countries, that people are going to receive me as an American, and what the implications of that will mean. What are the things, the cultural nuances that I even need to be aware of as I’m navigating that space as an American that can create connection for me, or that will create distance for me, most Americans, are not going to try to speak someone else’s language. We don’t want to butcher your language. I’m bad at it. I don’t want to be embarrassed by that. I’m not going to tear your language up. I’ve seen enough movies where people have said the wrong thing and that wasn’t what they intended to communicate. And I don’t want to be made fun of, right? That’s what a lot of Americans feel. But a lot of folks, when you come to their country, they’re like, you’re not even going to try at all. You’re not even gonna learn how to say thank you, right and they’re usually excited to try to engage with you in the language. So like our personal stigma, having awareness of how that’s received by someone else can help us and be willing to be wrong Exactly.

 

Jessica Hurley  42:54

It helps me and fix it. It

 

Amber Cabral  42:56

helps me I’m I have the benefit of knowing that it’s worth me trying and being wrong, it’s worth me leaning in and trying to fix it. I’m going to build a stronger connection with this perfect stranger in this other part of the world, if I am at least willing to be like, Okay, I know you’re skeptical of me because I’m American. I know I will make that worse by not even attempting to connect with you in the way that works the best for you. I had, I had a moment, and I, you know, I Uber a lot. So I was, I was in an Uber on the way to my nail shop, which is, I don’t know, probably the furthest place I go most of the time. It’s like, 20 minutes from my house. And so I was in a car, and the gentleman that was driving, I cannot remember, I think he said he was from Columbia. Yeah, he was from Columbia, which reminds me, I need to email him anyway. We he had asked me a question, and I answered and when he answered me, I realized that he wasn’t sure if what he said was right. I don’t remember what the question was or what the exchange was, but I could hear in his language that he was hesitating, like, did I say that correctly? Do you understand what’s kind of the energy? And I was like, Oh no, I follow. I’m fine. And so as we were going along, there’s a part in the road where there was construction, and so he’s trying to explain to me, I don’t want to go that way, because I know that there’s going to be construction, even though the GPS is telling me to go that way. But his limits in English were not necessarily allow that. So he was pointing to the GPS, and kind of saying a few words that he felt like in English that he knew. And I said, I pulled out my phone app, and I asked, Where are you from? I am trying to learn Spanish now. And I hit the play, so it said it to him, and so he smiled. We had a whole conversation, like the whole ride, ultimately got to a place where he was like, I really would like to be able to talk to someone that speaks English, like on a regular basis. He was like, I talk to my kids, but I don’t get to talk to anyone else on a regular basis. And I was like, wait, I have a friend that is taking Spanish from a company that does that they pair people up that speak the opposite language. So I will email you her information. So you can go ahead and get in touch. I mean, like, it was the best conversation, and we speak same language, y’all, we both stopped stumbling through my terrible Spanish, right? You know, I’m conjugating stuff wrong. He’s like, computer Dora. I’m like, oh, that’s computer, that’s right, I did, like, so, like, it’s like, total because I’m like, I don’t know 101, Spanish, right? I didn’t take it in high school and so, and he’s, you know, like, I, you know, I’ve been in Atlanta for six years. But, like, I don’t it’s not essential, necessarily, but I do want to do better. It was an amazing connection, but both of us were willing to sound really silly, to be uncomfortable, to recognize that, like, we have lots of reasons to not connect right now, culturally, we have lots of reasons to be skeptical of one another, but am I willing to endure that skepticism enough to build a connection in this moment? Because there’s some value that could be here, right? And it was so like, that’s the that’s the kind of like, that thing, I need more of that. I would like more people to be willing to just say, Okay, I don’t know. This thing is it, am I okay? Instead of just deciding to opt out of participating altogether, which is what a lot of

 

Jessica Hurley  46:05

people do, this is so good. All right, I know exactly where I’m going to end this, because we could talk all day. Okay? I’m going to tell you the privilege that I have, acknowledged that I have, that I refuse to feel guilty about it.

 

Amber Cabral  46:20

Okay, let’s hear it was that you have that you refuse to feel guilty

 

Jessica Hurley  46:25

about. And it took me forever to figure this out, and it has been since you and I have been in friendship and the canary that we get to partner together and work in that since I have just heard this from you, I have been like, what is it? And it’s and then when you really realize it’s something that’s typical, and it’s something that you deal with all the time that is just normal to you, right? That you’re then like, Oh, but I can do so much with this. Yeah, and it was just recently, that’s it.

 

Amber Cabral  46:51

It’s your privilege. What’s the thing that you’re walking around with all the time that you’re not applying in a way that can help other people? It’s not gonna hurt you? You got ton of it, and

 

Jessica Hurley  46:58

it took but it took guts for me to acknowledge this, and it’s that, by design, for whatever beautiful reason, I attract and get to partner with really incredible and powerful black women through the work that I do. And but I don’t look like them, no, and so, and we all know

 

Amber Cabral  47:18

very clearly I don’t look like Yeah,

 

Jessica Hurley  47:19

but because I don’t look like them, I can use that absolutely to advocate for them in the spaces that they may not have access

 

Amber Cabral  47:27

Absolutely And very often, you can get into the spaces that they have tried to get into,

 

Jessica Hurley  47:32

because I don’t look like them. And so how am I using that privilege that I know these women so well? I am fortunate enough to know these women so well, but I don’t look like them. So because I can get in these other rooms, how can I get in these rooms and advocate for all the things, the powerful things that I know about?

 

Amber Cabral  47:50

Yeah, and here’s an extra layer. I think it’s, yes, you’re white, so that’s part of it. But like, the other part of it that’s really, really, really good is that you’re interesting. So like, yeah, you can get in a lot of rooms simply because you’re white, but you’re gonna stay in a lot of rooms because you’re white and you’re interesting. And that could be interesting, like, how did you end up doing all this? You specifically, how did you, how did you end up doing this, right? Right? And then it could also be because it’s like, wow, you’re doing this is how you’re doing this, right, which you’ve experienced. And so all the time, my thing for you would be, have awareness of that, oh, I know you’re gonna find me interesting, or you’re going to be very curious about what I’m doing. So in addition to the fact I’m probably gonna be able to navigate this space a little bit just because I look like this, I have a couple things over here that’ll keep the conversation going as well. I use my privilege all the time like you should. You should? I know I can open this door with this thing. I’m going to do it there is not listen. There was a window of time in my life where I and I was living in Atlanta at this time, where I wanted to try as many restaurants as I possibly could in Atlanta, but I was not of the financial ilk to be able to do that. I just really moved here, and I’m hopping around from place to place. I had a conversation with someone I was friends with, and he literally told me, You are beautiful. Just go sit at the bar. I literally voila. Once a week, would go sit at the bar. I would order what I wanted. I would have the plan to pay for whatever I wanted almost every time it was taken care of. Most of the time I did not know by who

 

Jessica Hurley  49:29

I’m sorry, gentlemen, but that is something that you just do not have access to,

 

Amber Cabral  49:34

right? It’s a thing, yes, all right. And if you’re a beautiful woman, oh my gosh, right? So, like, it was, I, hey, I was, I was pretty I had long hair, I got light eyes, you know, like, let me just go sit at this bar. And so I got an opportunity to try a ton of restaurants, and it didn’t come out of my pocket, you know what I’m saying? So, like, there’s, there’s a point where, you know, we have to have. Awareness of, yes, the and this is tricky about, you know, the diversity, equity and inclusion work, because I think people hear it and think automatically it means over neutralize, right? And that’s not what’s going to really solve. The things, please hang on to your uniqueness. Please find value in it and then use it like that’s really important. And what we have to also do is recognize like, am I using it for good? Am I doing this in a way that’s impactful? I know that I fit a bunch of stereotypes. I’m not gonna turn stereotypes off. They’re gonna happen. It’s just the way culture works. It’s good for us to be aware of them. It’s good for us to try to avoid stereotyping people ourselves. But like in the grand scheme of things, people aren’t going to think certain thoughts pretty consistently when they see you or when they see me or anybody else that we know, we know what the things are. Oh yeah, people always think blah blah blah about me, right? Always. It’s consistent. The very, very best thing you can do is have that awareness and navigate within it. I know you’re gonna think I’m pushy. That’s okay. We’re gonna have a little fun with that.

 

Jessica Hurley  51:02

I’m gonna use it I’m only pretty or I’m only this, or I am, yeah, yeah. And guess what? We’re

 

Amber Cabral  51:07

gonna have a little fun with that, because I know you’re gonna think that, so I know how to play and dance around it. So we’re gonna enjoy it together. So if I have to endure the stereotype, we are going to take the journey. We’re gonna endure it together. Yeah, absolutely, yes. That’s how I think it has to go. I wish more people saw the experience of inclusion and equity that way. I think they were more curious. You know, I wish they were more curious. I wish they were more willing to say I don’t really know, because I think this about this, but I’m gonna go explore that, and I’m gonna go ahead and be willing to be wrong about some things, or I’m gonna try to talk to this person who clearly doesn’t speak the same language that I do, or I’m going to be curious and interested in, you know, this? And you know, who does this really well, kids. Kids do it really well, but we, we end up coaching it out of them, you know, as they get older. But like, kids are curious. They want to try the foods, they want to drink, the things they want, you know, like they’re, you know, they’re the new mommy.

 

Jessica Hurley  51:58

Why can’t this person talk like me? Yes, Mommy, why does this person not look like me exactly?

 

Amber Cabral  52:02

And they want to understand. So how do I connect with this person? What tools are available to me? Oh, wait, I can talk to them anyway, if I use this tool, like, and so like, what would happen if we created spaces where we did just embrace and recognize, yo, you’re different than I am. And I know people see this when they look at you, but they see this when they look at me. How can we make this work? I use my boyfriend all the time, all the time. He’s warm, he’s friendly, he’s happy. You know, I’m saying like, and I mean, I’m not unhappy, but, like, the first thing someone’s gonna say about me when they meet me is definitely not. They might say powerful. They’re not gonna say happy, right? He is happy. He’s joyful. And so as soon as he enters the space, there are times where I want to say something, and I am hot about a thing or it’s not being handled well. And I’m usually like, Hey, babe, can you? And he’s like, Absolutely, because it is his privilege. He’s great at it. He can warm anybody up. He’s great at it. And so like, we have to get better at like, instead of trying to turn these differences off and pretend they’re not a thing, we have to get better at being willing to be like, All right, how can I use that? Because you’re gonna think it anyway. So I love that. I love that. I think it’s a great privilege to be aware

 

Jessica Hurley  53:05

of being curious, owning your uniqueness and having hard conversations. Absolutely

 

Amber Cabral  53:10

please have more hard conversations. Thank you. You’re welcome. Thank you. Thanks for being bold enough to share that. Megan’s good.

 

Jessica Hurley  53:18

I love learning from you.

 

Amber Cabral  53:20

I love teaching girl, Hi, I’m Melissa. You.