SUMMARY KEYWORDS

work, people, dei, organization, dni, leaders, diversity, conversations, equity, employees, privilege, build, feel, talk, navigate, embed, budget, resources, role, company

SPEAKERS

Amber Cabral, Michelle M.

Amber Cabral 00:05

Amber privilege is all around you. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. I’m Amber Cabral, and this is guilty privilege. Welcome back to another episode of guilty privilege. My name is Amber Cabral, and today I have the privilege of talking to Michelle Marshall. She is the Head of Diversity Equity and Inclusion at Puma, and we’re going to talk about the ways that diversity comes to life in an organization, the importance of building impactful relationships and some things to think about if you’re worried about maybe how dei is coming to life in your organization or a little worried about budget. Thank you so much for joining me on my on my lovely green couch here.

Michelle M. 00:47

I know I know some clash, but that’s on me. You know, I love money green. Listen,

Amber Cabral 00:51

green is the thing. We need more green, especially in our industry, we could definitely use more green. Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I wanted to start out with what I think is being talked about a lot right now, and it is personally on my nerves, but since you work in the diversity space, I am sure you are hearing it, and I am curious about your perspective. There’s all this conversation about diversity is dying. What are your thoughts about that

Michelle M. 01:17

there’s no possible way for diversity to die. This is a melting pot of a country. There’s multiple ethnicities, nationalities. I mean, we have people with disabilities, like none of us are going anywhere, and if people really understood the work, they wouldn’t say those words, diversity is dying. Diversity is about all of us. Diversity is about us having a seat at the table and being set up to succeed, right? And it’s about us feeling like we belong. So I don’t know who started that narrative. The diversity is dying, but we, I want us to stop carrying it forth and really focus on empowering and coming together and being empowering, coming together and saying, Nope, it’s still here. We’re not going anywhere. These, these things will not go away.

Amber Cabral 02:03

I often tell people, like, when I hear the diversity is dying thing, I’m like, to your point, it’s clear people don’t actually know what it is. But I’m also like, you know, diversity can’t die because it’s actually who we are. Like, I am carrying myself everywhere I go. So are all the other people who are coming to your jobs and your grocery stores and all of that stuff. And so it’s like, to your point, how can something die that we’re literally existing in? Like, it’s not a thing that’s that’s even possible. So I’m in this. I’m in the same boat. I tend to, I’ll just say I don’t tend to engage with those posts. But every once in a while, I will chime in and post on my own. You know, social feeds like, diversity is not dying. Don’t be confused by the billionaires. It is actually something we’re taking full advantage of still to this day. Well, for sure, yeah, yeah. So I would love to hear your perspective, because obviously, sitting in a dei role at Puma, I’m sure that there are some things that you know to be benefits of having a dei person. I think that I encounter a lot of clients who are like, well, do I actually need a dei person? Is that important? I would love to just hear your perspective on why, why or why not, or what considerations people need to have before they get to the point of having a dei person, or what’s the benefits of having a person in that role?

Michelle M. 03:17

Well, right now, we’re watching the NFL championship games and the playoffs, and in order for those teams to get to the end goal, they need someone to coach them. They need someone coming up with the strategy and putting the playbook in place. If you don’t have that person at your organization, people are just doing but they’re not doing with impact and with intention. The good thing about the DNI leaders. They’re corporate chess players. They’re able to work across the organization, which is rare with a lot of leader roles, because most roles don’t have the reach that DNI leaders have. And as a result, you really get to learn the business inside and out and across the organization. And when you’re learning the business, you can work with those leaders to figure out, how do we embed this work into what you’re doing day over day, and how do we embed it in a way where it’s at the top and we’re making sure that people are being held accountable to make sure it is happening exactly

Amber Cabral 04:12

I wonder what you would say to the perspective that you know there’s a lot of conversation as well about dei leaders are not impactful. Dei leaders are not touching the business. Dei leaders are not having the level of influence. I have some personal perspectives, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. Well, I

Michelle M. 04:31

definitely want to hear yours as well. But in terms of that, if, if you’re hearing that, then an organization need to look behind, look under the hood and understand why that is, do they have leadership buy in? Are the leaders really ushering in the work and giving them the support they need? Do they have the budget? Because I’m sure me and you have both heard about some huge corporations where the DNI leader has 00, budget. What are you going What are zero to do with that?

Amber Cabral 04:58

Zero? If.

Michelle M. 04:59

So and do they have the budget? Do they have a team? Have they been given the objectives in terms of what they want them to accomplish? So if you’re hearing those things, then the organization needs to take a look at themselves to see what are they doing to set this role up? It’s like any other leader role, whether it’s a CMO, a CFO, they’re not just going to throw someone in there without budget, without resources, right, without a strategy, right? Exactly.

Amber Cabral 05:26

So I often share with people to share my perspective when I hear that, you know, oh, we don’t necessarily have influential dei people, one of the things that’s usually assigned to me is that there’s something going on with the company’s culture, like there’s either you’re either working siloed, you to your point, don’t have leadership, buy in. Perhaps there is a little bit of the, what we call check the box, energy happening. And so just as a consultant, like when we take in a client, we usually will ask, Who is the person that is accountable for the work? So great. You want us to come talk, teach, speak, train, whatever, but who is accountable? So, like, when this is over, I know that there’s going to be some intentional practice to make sure that the information we share is carried forward, so that it is touching all the business lines, all of the people that are working there, so that it doesn’t end up just being, oh, we had a nice training that day, you know, like, which I feel like a lot of people are okay with, but doesn’t actually move the work forward. For sure,

Michelle M. 06:23

there’s, there’s a lot of DNA champions at organizations. But then what? After you, like you said to your point, after you have the training, after you have the phenomenal cultural event internally, right? Then what? And then who do you have? Um, thinking about, okay, we’re having this, and why are we having this? What are we trying to measure and what are we trying to accomplish when we’re having this particular event, or when we’re rolling out this initiative? And let’s be frank, it’s me, DNI champions that you have, everyone is focusing on their daytime that’s their priority, yes, and everything else is is not as important as their daytime job. So you need someone who is centrally focused on this work, day in and day out. Yeah,

Amber Cabral 07:04

yeah. I agree. It’s kind of almost like, I don’t want to necessarily say governance, but to a degree, that’s it. It’s helping people to have a place to go to say, Am I doing this? Well, how can I get better at it? What are some resources that are available if I am struggling with bringing it to life in my part of the business, versus it just being like, Oh, we have a dei person, you know, which, you know, we know happens sometimes, but those people end up burnt out, overworked, they don’t have budget, you know. So we end up seeing a lot of the fallout from that as well. I get a lot of questions from folks that are really like, I want to do, what you do? I imagine that you probably encounter that as well, especially post, you know, the murder of George Floyd. I feel like that activated a lot of folks, and so I get a lot more, you know, whether it’s on LinkedIn or, you know, across my email. Hey, I would love to get into Dei. What do I do? I’m really interested in Dei. I’m currently in marketing at XYZ organization. What recommendations do you make to people when they mentioned to you that they’re interested in getting into the DEI field? Well,

Michelle M. 08:11

we need as many people as possible to do the work, because let’s, let’s be honest, I’m, at some point, I’m going to be tired and I’m going to be ready to lean back and reach and pull somebody else in. I was that person many years ago, back in the early 2000s 2009 when my company was really embarking upon the work. The company that was at the time, and I was fortunate to have a great sponsor who was the chief diversity officer, and he really, had really a lot of intentional conversations with me, he kept it real about what this work was. What I tell people is, if you want to get into this work, ask yourself, why? Ask yourself, have you done the research? Because a lot of us, DNI leaders, people see you and all your cool events, yeah, and they see you posting, and they see you in the media, but they don’t understand it’s like, 5% of the role, exactly, and that’s the fun part. So, and we’re happy we’re getting that 5% but the other parts of it, right? It’s very hard work. It’s crucial conversations.

Amber Cabral 09:12

I would argue the 5% is the hard work. Like, also, like, you know, like, it’s, I always joke with you that you are always at all the cool shit, but I know you, you’re there because you’ve built the relationships. You have established trust. You put the work in. Like, folks are familiar with you, and they want proximity to you just as much as you are benefiting from proximity to them. So like, I think that’s that’s also a challenge and a value too.

Michelle M. 09:34

That is, that’s a different perspective. I haven’t thought about it because I’m just in it. But yeah, it can be worked because all those things it took 1510, to 15 years of building relationships, of being a servant leader, working alongside people, and supporting people, to get to that point where they’re bringing me in and they want proximity to me. But I just tell people, this, this, this, this work is emotionally taxing. Yes. And sleeve taxing. It’s a blessing to be in this work. I call it my purpose driven work, yeah, but also it is. You’re going to have to really do the work internally to make sure you’re prioritizing stuff. Yeah, I’ve started posting something called selfish Sundays, because I really got to the point where I had to start choosing myself. Because when you were rolling up your sleeves doing this work, you’re trying to fight all the battles, and then you put yourself last, and you have to remember that this work is going to take you being really intentional about showing up for self. I agree with

Amber Cabral 10:29

that. I think, especially in the current climate, where it feels like there is, every month at minimum, sometimes even more frequently, an episode that involves some specific community, like, it could be something, you know, like, right now we’re navigating all the conversations that are going around because of the war in Gaza, there has been, you know, obviously a myriad of different attacks that have happened across the country, whether that’s, you know, shootings in schools, or, you know, police brutality or, like, it’s always something and so like, to your point of it Being mentally taxing. I do think that sometimes what happens is folks get activated because they want to change the thing that’s affecting them. I always try to make sure people understand that, like you also got to talk about stuff that don’t affect you, because it affects you in some way, like you are working with some people it affects you are potentially involved or interacting with communities that it has an impact on. And so, you know, I to your point about asking yourself, why do I want to do this part of that? Why has to be like, it’s great that you want equity, access opportunity for people who look like you, but are you also willing to put yourself in the position to fight for the folks that don’t look like you? And very often, that’ll get people to the position of saying, like, oh, I hadn’t really thought about that. Like, yeah, you know, there’s that piece. I also tend to there are a lot of programs out now that people can take. I didn’t go through any of them, so I never can recommend those. But I always want to remind people that equity work is the kind of work that you have to kind of get in. So there isn’t necessarily a programmatic way that’s going to prepare you for what you’re going to encounter, for sure. And so that self care piece that being willing to say, like, I have to take care of me because I am literally in the way of some of the most difficult social issues in the world right now, it’s imperative that you step back. I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode, and if you happen to also be looking for tools to help you navigate tough conversations, to be able to show up as a more impactful ally, or just to have resources about how to navigate equity in your world. I’ve written two books. My first book is called allies and advocates, and this book is really focused on helping you show up as a more impactful ally. It has actual tactics and tips and things that you can practice to help you get there, both for yourself and for others. My second book is called say more about that. Now. Say more about that is more about helping you to speak up, to push back, to challenge, to be able to have those conversations that sometimes get a little bit difficult. And in fact, I’ve given you actual scripts to help you to be able to do that. So if you’re interested in just having a few extra resources in your pocket to be able to help you to navigate any of those things. You can go pick up those books anywhere where you buy books, or you can pop down into the show notes and click the links and buy them there. Back to the episode

Michelle M. 13:13

for sure, and really do the research to understand the components of the work. Because, like I mentioned earlier, this is one of the few roles in the organization that works across so many business units. And the reason I didn’t drown initially as the first diversity leader at my current, current company that they’ve ever had, is because I’ve been all around the work. I’ve been in the nonprofit space. I’ve done the corporate social responsibility on the corporate side, I’ve worked with the multicultural marketing teams and all those pieces I was picking up along the way helped me to be prepared for this seat, right? And not saying you got to pick up all those experiences, but you have to understand and be able to speak the language whenever you’re working with these different leaders and business units on what it’s going to take to really implement the work in the right way. Yeah,

Amber Cabral 14:00

exactly i Because, you know, you get to go to all the cool shit. I have to ask you this, so, you know, when we’re thinking about what dei people do, one of the things that I see consistently is that dei people are involved in the work outside of their jobs. They are intentional about how they show up, what causes they support. I’m just interested, what are some of the things that you are connected to from an equity standpoint, outside of Puma,

Michelle M. 14:29

for sure? Well, I going back to college. I don’t know where this came from, probably from my mother, but I was president of African American student association at a PWI. A PWI, they had a building named after the founder of the KKK. Oh, wow. Um, okay, that, we’ll go deep into that. You haven’t changed. Oh, wow. Okay, so I was, I was doing that in college, and then I just took that energy to my first company I worked at, and I saw all the work that they were doing, because they had entered the they had entered the world DNI a little earlier than a lot of companies. Nice for various reasons, and I just started volunteering. I was like, National Civil Rights Museum, can I volunteer for that? And I just Stell kept volunteering and jumping in and find out more and more as I kept moving deeper into what the company was doing, and really started taking on and learning the work in terms of what I do as well, just in current and present day, I’m on the Board of Trustees for HBCU Lane College, which is in my hometown, because I think it’s important that the smaller HBCUs are getting the love, and also they have thought leaders at the table. Is really thinking about, how can we move the school forward, so that it survives, right? The next 10 to 25, to 57, generations really right, and that we’re equipping these students with the things that they need to really be able to compete, um, when they’re ready to graduate and start looking for their their careers. Um, I’m also on the National Black MBA Association, because that organization is all about their board, their Atlanta chapter. It’s all about ensuring that the professionals that’s a part of their organization are being given the tools they need and being aligned with corporate partners so they can compete for not just jobs, but those jobs are decision making jobs, those high net worth jobs, and also working with the entrepreneurs to make sure that they have the tools they need to really build up a business where they can create generational wealth for their families. And then there’s two other organizations I’m involved with a lot, though I mentioned two other this is why you need to go with all cool stuff and cool stuff, yes. And one is rise. I’m on that board is the organization focused on making sure college students are able to participate in democracy, making sure that they have the resources they need to pay for college, and making sure that they’re getting to the polls and voting. And then the other organization I want to mention is I’m on silence to shame, which was started by former music executive Shanti Das, and it’s all about removing the stigma of talking about mental health and the black community and other communities, to make sure that we’re taking care of our mind, body and soul. Yes, because it has to work together, or it doesn’t work at all. Yes, yes, absolutely.

Amber Cabral 17:12

What are your What are your recommendations? And I think that you kind of gave us a little bit of a clue with your last answer, but I want to still ask just to make sure that we are connecting the dots so people get the pieces. What are your recommendations for folks who are maybe at an organization that’s very small, so they don’t necessarily have a diversity leader, or they don’t have diversity programming, or, you know, someone who’s at an organization that and I encountered this quite a bit in my work, maybe they are not US based, and so their journey in the DEI space has just looked really different, and isn’t, you know, as robust as some of what we see in the in the States? What is your recommendation for the employee that is navigating that like, if they’re, you know, maybe not necessarily feeling seen or connected, or want to in some way, make sure that they are still feeding that part of themselves that, like, really wants to see equity come to life? What might you recommend that they do?

Michelle M. 17:59

The easiest thing is to first try to get the leadership buy in. I know people don’t like hearing this, but oftentimes change is going to come from the top, and if you don’t have that buy in from the top, it’s going to be a harder road for you to walk. So if you can try to find that advocate or that ally that’s going to really understand why there’s a need also try to take advantage of those opportunities when the company is not getting things right, and take those opportunities to be able to go to leaders. For example, most companies do employee survey phase surveys, and I’ve been in rooms over the years, so over the course of my career, where they’re looking visibly shocked that their scores are low. Oh yeah, that is a thing, and a lot of times the scores are low because employees may not have a sense of psychological safety or sense of belonging at their organization. So when you’re hearing those type of things, or seeing those type of things, or seeing high turnover, then now you have a business case to be able to help back you up when you’re going to those leaders, to try to get that buy in for why we may need resources, and in terms of the learning, there’s so many resources out there now, so many consultants and so many YouTube channels, so many things that people can leverage within their organization to say, hey, I want to see if we can watch this and have a company wide training, or want us to have a discussion around this, so it won’t be easy, but you have to take baby steps and not try to take on the world, the world on your shoulders coming out the gate. Because I’ve been in situations where I tried to do that and it burnt me out. Yeah, so you want to take it baby steps, one step at a time, and just work to get allies along the way. Yeah,

Amber Cabral 19:39

absolutely. I just to kind of piggyback on that. I encounter a lot of organizations that that’s the case. I’m on the line with, like, the one person in the company that’s like, I know this is important, so I booked the call with you, right? But I don’t necessarily have leadership buy in. I don’t, you know, have dollars. I’m not seeing programming in my organization. And. Very often what I say is very similar to what you say, like there are so many free things. Take a look at the free things like and take a look at the examples of those free things being used well, because diversity and equity and inclusion are all things that you can get the tools for without having to bring someone in. And very often, even in my consultancy, we won’t take people on if they are too new. You know, it almost can feel like we’re draining your dollars, like it’s not even fair for us to come in if you aren’t, at least at some of that, like we can have this conversation without outrage place, right? And so it there’s so much that I think we we we don’t think about taking advantage of because there’s a lot of conversation about the budgets are being cut. There’s no dollars. And so the focus is obviously on drumming up those dollars and calling attention to the fact that people need the budgets. But sometimes it’s an organization that that’s just not the place that they’re at, or they can’t and so I always try to make sure people understand, like there are still things available to you, there are still options that you can explore. Okay, so I want to talk about a little bit more about specifically what dei looks like in your role. So like, what are some of the things that you are in your day to day in a corporation, in a well known Corporation, what are some of the things that you are day to day, just having kind of flowed across your desk that, you know, maybe people aren’t considering, or you know that is a part of what you do, that, you know, I would say that we’re very undervalued, but that perhaps people don’t understand the value and benefit that they are receiving by you taking care of that. Hey there. I hope you’re enjoying the episode, and in fact, if you are, you can bring me to your organization or event to help you bring conversations like this to life in your workspaces. This is something I do for a living. I do coaching, I do training, I do executive consulting, whatever it is that you might need as it relates to trying to figure out how to activate allyship or equity in your space, it’s probably something I can support. So if you’re interested in how we can work together, you can reach out to me@cabraco.com or pop down into the show notes and click the link book a discovery call, and we will chat with you soon back to the show

Michelle M. 22:12

for sure. I always tell people that my job is policies, procedures and policies, procedures and projects, because when they’re thinking it’s like, so glamorous, like it’s it has this moment too. Yes, this policies, projects and procedures, right? You’re looking through the organization trying to figure out, how can I come up with something and be able to get the proper buy in and embed it in a way that if I left today, or if I got sick and was out it don’t stop with me. There’s sustainable work that is deeply embedded into the fabric of everything we’re doing, of the organization, throughout the organization and with my job, in my current role, I have five pillars that I oversee, and it’s of course, the culture is all about all the things we’re looking at. How do we work with the benefits team to address, how can we be more inclusive from a benefit standpoint? How can we make sure that we’re doing pay equity audits and that we’re we’re doing what we’re supposed to there? What are we doing in the environment to ensure the entire organization is participating, right? What metrics are we putting in place to hold leaders accountable? Because they may say, Oh, I’ll come. I’ll participate. We have to hold them accountable, right? And make sure that they’re actively participating and being held accountable by their leader or the CEO, making sure that we’re building those diverse talent pipelines. Because I don’t ever want to be in a situation where I’m hearing we can’t find diverse talent. Oh my gosh, diverse talent everywhere. It’s just, where are you looking Who are you reaching out to? Is there some affinity biases going going on? Where you just reaching out to people that look like you, that’s in your

Amber Cabral 23:48

neighborhood, are in your school, because your your former school networks. That’s the one I see the most. Oh, I tried to pick from my former schools, a very diverse campus, and I’m like,

Michelle M. 23:57

Yeah, not so much. But and how you developing your current staff? Because sometimes people are so busy trying to build those strategies for recruitment, how are you recruiting your internal staff that already knows the culture, and also from a learning development standpoint, just embedding those things and implementing those programs and learnings where it’s truly giving the leaders tools and resources on the language and behaviors they need to make sure their employee feels like they have everything they need to be productive and thrive a lot of times. And I’m not talking about anyone that does this. It’s just not my style. Yeah, people come in wanting to be Kumbaya. Guys sit at my him, learn from me. Let’s come together. This is the work. These are corporations, you have to have a business imperative for why you’re doing anything. Exactly so when I’m rolling out an inclusive leadership track, it’s because I know that in order for employees to be productive, they have to have a place a sense of psychological safety, yes, and once they are filling that need and feel like they. Have everything they need to thrive. They’re going to be their most productive selves, their most innovative selves, and then that’s going to add to the bottom line. Because if people don’t care about black, white, or whatever, they care about the bottom line, they care about green, the theme of the day, yes, yes. So you have to connect it to the green and the bottom line, the business case. And then I just took on, um, our social justice platform just came under me that we actually launched in 20 2018 I almost went blank on the date we launched it in 2018 because of an ambassador, Dr Tommy Smith, and that being the 50 year anniversary at the time of the silent stance, the silent protest at the Olympus. So really working to build out that work and then and how we show up in the community, and then that’s from the marketplace standpoint, just working with some of those departments, like product and Design and Merchandising and marketing, and really figuring out how we can embed processes to ensure that we’re showing up as authentic in our products and our campaigns. Yeah, I’m

Amber Cabral 25:58

gonna ask you one more question before I give you, like the question I ask everyone, and that question is, what is? What is something that you really wish that the employees of an organization like yours or somewhere else where there are so many intentional and purposeful steps being taken, but you know, those aren’t all, because everything doesn’t directly touch the employee. We’re trying to be impactful in a broader, broader space. What are some of the things that you really wish that employees understood about dei

Michelle M. 26:29

Hmm, that’s a good question. I don’t know if we have enough time. I’ll see if I can answer. I wish they really understood what this is. This is a marathon, not a sprint, that you can’t make things happen and shake up the establishment overnight. Yes, I had an employee tell me one time I don’t think you’re fighting hard enough. I don’t sleep at night. I get a few hours of sleep because of all the things I have to navigate through, because there’s so much, like I said earlier this this, this role touches so many parts of the organization, and you have to get the proper buy in. You have to make sure the resources are there, and I may roll out the most innovative, sophisticated program, but if my team is lean, exactly who’s gonna do the work, right? So I think they’re not thinking about all the things that it takes to really make sure you’re doing it in the right way. And whenever I’m talking to employees about I love that you’re a champion. You want to do this on the side of your desk, but it’s important that we do it this way so it is going on and sustainable beyond you. And I want them to think big picture about that, like, in order for the work to really happen in the right way, it has to be what the organization has signed on. They have to put it in their their annual goals, and you have to have someone holding them accountable saying, we are doing this thing. Let’s measure it. Let’s make sure we have KPIs around it. Let’s make sure we’re getting check, we’re buying we’re checking in with you and seeing what the progress is, right?

Amber Cabral 28:02

Exactly? I think that’s, I mean, just understanding kind of, I mean, we keep, kind of having these answers that come back to tie it to the green, tie it to the bottom line. And I do agree that sometimes you do have those employees that are very passionate, that are, you know, really excited, that want to see a specific change come to life, and they can get very, very big personality, pushy energy, you know, when sometimes that’s not the best approach. When you’re trying to get somebody to give you dollars to make, you know, the things happen in the organization. So sure.

Michelle M. 28:33

And then just to add to that, um, what they also have to understand, just because they don’t see it happening doesn’t mean there’s nothing happening behind the scenes, right? I have a dotted line into the CEO. I meet with board members in some conversations. I just can’t go around right, saying all the things that we’re trying to do behind the scenes, because there may be some things we have to navigate before we can announce it that, yes, we’re working on these things right now, and it’s gonna take some time. But as for your patience, yes,

Amber Cabral 29:03

absolutely okay. So the show is called guilty privilege. And so the reason I call it guilty privilege is because I think that lots of us who have privileges can sometimes hide them or feel ashamed, or, you know, have these emotions around it, and I think that we would be better served by recognizing that privilege is actually something that gives us the ability to make impact and have change happen and all of those things, it opens doors for us, and we should use that. So my question for you is, what is one privilege that you have that you refuse to feel guilty about?

Michelle M. 29:34

Hmm, okay, um, you know, I just um, it’s a friend that just said something to me recently. He said, I don’t know if you you realize you’re like a celebrity, and I don’t think I’m like a celebrity. You’re like a celebrity. So I will say I’ve just started seeing through his eyes and others eyes, how they see me, because I’m just in the work. Yeah, I’m trying to drive impact. And. Lately, since people have been pointing it out more and more, yes, I think a privilege I have is I get to, I have access to some very powerful people, and I get to be in some very powerful rooms, yes, and I’ve had that privilege for for majority of my career. When I was in my 20s, working in finance, I got to, like, talk to board members and be around and travel with senior leaders, and maybe that was God preparing me for this moment to make sure I had those experiences and that didn’t feel intimidated once I got to this point. But I don’t feel guilty about that, because I know I’ve built those relationships from me walking in my purpose, from me trying to find and ways that I can create more impact. And always tell people, make sure you’re building those relationships for them to be a two way street. Yeah, I don’t just go seeking people out because you want something from them. I don’t care if they’re a billionaire, they’re highly successful, they’ve been acknowledged by every media outlet. Always go in thinking, how can I support you? Yeah, how can I show up with you, check in on them? I believe in mentorship, but I don’t subscribe to it for myself, because I believe when I say my mentor, right? I’m elevating someone. And I don’t build those type of relationships. I build those relationships where I want to build a relationship with you, right? I want to see, how can we support each other? How can we pour into each other, versus me just having you pour into me? Right?

Amber Cabral 31:25

Exactly. I love that. That’s such a great answer. I also want to just double down with your friends. You are kind of like a celebrity.

Michelle M. 31:34

I’m very blessed, but you know, I’m I’m humble, even if I tried to get a big head, my sisters and my mother will remind me real quick,

Amber Cabral 31:43

so that’s okay. We appreciate that part about you too, yes. Well, thank you for joining me for this conversation.

Michelle M. 31:48

I appreciate you always. Love spending time with you absolutely. We

Amber Cabral 31:51

got to spend some more time hell, for sure, for sure, for sure. You