SUMMARY KEYWORDS

authors, book, privilege, publishing, diverse backgrounds, people, talk, important, thought, acquisitions editor, folks, question, ideas, janine, networks, voices, work, world, guilty, kinds

SPEAKERS

Amber Cabral, Jeanenne Ray

Amber Cabral 00:00

Three. Privilege is all around you. It shows up in your clothes, where you live, the places you frequent, your network capital, and even how you spend your money. It’s useless until you recognize it. So it’s time to stop feeling guilty and figure out how to use your privilege to make an impact. Welcome to guilty privilege. Welcome back to guilty privilege. My name is Amber Cabral, and today I have the privilege of speaking to Janine Ray. She is an associate publisher at Wiley Publishing, and she’s my publisher, and the reason that I became an author as well. In our conversation, we’re going to talk about some of the equity and inequity in publishing and why it’s so important for authors to have an opportunity to get published. Hi Janine, hi Amber. I am so happy you’re here.

Jeanenne Ray 00:52

I’m so glad you asked me to come.

Amber Cabral 00:54

Listen. I was really worried you’re going to say no.

Jeanenne Ray 00:56

I thought about it up until about 10 minutes ago.

Amber Cabral 01:00

Well, thank goodness you stuck with a yes. I’m really happy you’re here, because if it were not for you, I don’t know that I would be a published author today, and I’m really grateful for that, and I’m also grateful because I feel like you have been so intentional about building a relationship with me as well. And so I felt comfortable enough to reach out and say, Hey, Janine, would be a good fit for this. And I figured you’d tell me, yes,

Jeanenne Ray 01:22

yeah. Well, I’m really happy that you asked me and I would do anything for you. So I’m pretty super happy to be here. Listen,

Amber Cabral 01:29

I would do anything for you. It’s a dangerous thing to tell me. Okay, so let me say that. So I just want to tell y’all that Janine is the reason for this book, as well as my other book. And so I just want to talk to you a little bit about publishing and just some of the things that, you know, it’s a pretty interesting space. You’ve been in this space for a while, and since, you know, we’re talking quite a bit about privilege on this podcast, I thought you’d be a good guest, because of the privilege that shows up in the publishing world. So my first question for you is a little bit, you know, personal to me, and if you read my book, then you know that. But I think you messaged to me in our first or second phone call that you were intentionally trying to create some equitable access in the publishing world, right? And why do you think it’s important to make an intentional effort to diversify publishing,

Jeanenne Ray 02:24

I think, for far too long in my own career, but going back for decades and decades, it’s been an industry dominated by male voices, white male voices in particular. It’s something that you know, I’ve experienced myself in talking to others, and that’s, you know, there’s a business model there, and it’s a particular business model, and it’s successful, but it doesn’t, it’s not the full picture. Of course, it’s, it’s one type of voice over and over again. And I think that, you know, bringing in as many different voices into the books that we publish is really important, and that, you know, I realized, as I met you and started really thinking about what I was doing with my career and the kinds of books that I was publishing, that I have a responsibility. And, you know, as we say, I have a huge privilege to be able to choose the authors that I work with, the people that I work with, and to amplify their voices in in a big way. Yeah.

Amber Cabral 03:28

So can you tell us what you do exactly? Because I think your job is super cool because I didn’t know it existed until we met, yeah, and most folks, I think, don’t know that your job exists. So can you tell us what

Jeanenne Ray 03:39

you do? Sure. Well, when I first reached out to you, I was an acquisitions editor in the business trade Publishing Group of Wiley, and my job is to reach out to authors and talk to them about what they do in their day to day and see if there’s a place for a book that would support their businesses to get Their business model, to get their thought leadership out, out into the world. And that’s that’s really, that’s really my was my whole job is a talent agent of finding authors and helping to shape their books, helping to make sure that their their message is getting out in a way that they’re proud of something that represents them, that supports their businesses and helps feed their families and helps employ their employees and all of those things. So when a book works, those things happen, and it’s really satisfying to see. Yeah, I

Amber Cabral 04:33

love that you shared all of that, because when you and I talked, you told me, like the book is just part of it, the book ultimately creates an opportunity for you to have access to different spaces. It gives you a chance to adjust your pricing. It levels you up as an expert. It does a lot of other things that can impact how you make money, the kinds of clients you get. And I really appreciated that perspective, and honestly, it made me more excited about writing a book. I wanted to write a book, but it made me more excited about it. And so. Was really grateful that you took the time to explain that there’s all of these other elements that maybe folks don’t consider when they’re just thinking about, Oh, I’m gonna make a book, I’m gonna sell it, and then that’s it. Yeah, yeah. So I love that. What have you witnessed as a result of championing authors from diverse backgrounds, like because you’ve been intentional about it? Are there some things that have happened that have you know, stood out to you that you think are important to share.

Jeanenne Ray 05:24

I don’t think there’s been anything negative. I think it’s all been a learning experience for me and for my team and for everybody that I work with. Yeah, I think that, you know, one of the most positive things that I’ve experienced is just working with great people who are really appreciative of the opportunity, whereas some, you know, there may be other authors who have had access to these kinds of opportunities their whole lives. Yeah, so, and that’s been super rewarding, like, selfishly, it’s been really rewarding for me, but it’s been really amazing to see. Yeah,

Amber Cabral 06:01

yeah. I appreciate the acknowledgement that there are some folks that have had access, you know, their whole lives, like when I met you, not only did I not know that an acquisitions editor was a thing, I also just hadn’t even really thought about what I would have to do to get a book together. And so when I met you, you were you made it so easy. You were just like, Listen, you have it. It’s in you. I just heard it, right? And so just you hearing the content that I had available, you were able to kind of distill that into, no, there’s something here. And if you’re open to it, let’s explore it. What are some things that you think are really important, you know, for a writer, a potential author, to know if they’re thinking about, you know, exploring, creating a book.

Jeanenne Ray 06:42

I think it depends on what kind of book, if we’re talking about a fiction book, you know, that’s very different from the books that I work on, my team works on, which are nonfiction, you know, sort of how to, in a way, that kinds of frameworks and solutions that people are looking for. But I think the most important thing for those authors to remember is, just like you said. It’s already in you. It’s what you’re talking about. It’s what people come to you to you know about, to solve their problems, whatever their issue is. It’s the number one question that people ask you when you get down off of the podium after a speaking engagement, or, you know, a client is asking you in your first meeting, like, how can you help me solve this? This is my problem. And so if you have an answer and it’s serving your clients, then you can put it in a book, and that book becomes a tool to get your work out in a bigger way. And if it can become your calling card, yeah, yeah.

Amber Cabral 07:35

What? What do you feel like you’ve learned as an editor that you think you know authors, it would benefit us to know,

Jeanenne Ray 07:47

I think, you know, we talked about this a lot, but I think relationships are everything, yes, and my relationships with my authors is really important to me. And I talk a lot in my initial calls with authors, and you and I have these conversations about, you know, we’re partners in this. We’re going to make it work together, and we’re going to, we’re not going to publish anything that you aren’t happy with, and we’re going to advise you on what you what we think is going to make the book successful. And so learning more about the ways to partner with different people and different personalities, and getting to kind of the heart of what the author’s goal is is, is really important. And I mean, I see myself as an advisor to my authors, you know, for their, yeah, throughout their publishing career. And it’s never the goal to do one book, you know, we want. We clearly want a successful book, and then we want the opportunity to do to work more together.

Amber Cabral 08:41

So when you say a successful book, I think so my first book was really fast because the topic was timely, right? GEORGE Floyd had just happened, and the world was in, you know, just an uproar about that, and covid was happening. So it was just a very interesting time. And so my book was done really quickly. And then my second book took a bit longer, but like, there was a lot of, you know, talking and coaching and, you know, just all of this dialog that we had along the journey that I didn’t expect. Honestly, I thought that, like I signed this thing, I have to get it in by this date. What are some of the things that you know kind of happen along the journey, you know, for a writer or, you know, a potential publishing author to think about or be aware of on that journey, because I encountered some things I know I can share, but I imagine you have probably heard and seen a lot more than me. I mean, I think you’ve

Jeanenne Ray 09:31

probably heard it all at this point. I think you know as the author, there’s different things that happen as authors of writing. Some authors just power through, and they are just, they just have their eye on the deadline, and they’re just like doing everything they can to make it happen. There’s other authors that get really stuck in the middle of all of it and really bogged down with sort of the responsibility and the pressure, and they start questioning themselves. So I think, you know, those are the, actually, those are the I like working. Of those authors, yeah, when they can come to me and say, you know, look, I’m really struggling, and we can, like, work through it together and adjust what we need to adjust. I’ve had so many authors come and say, Look, I’ve had a death in my family, or I’ve had, you know, I lost my something like and connecting with authors, first of all, you know, on a human level, first, and then dealing with the business aspect of things and making it work on both sides, works a lot better than say, sorry, you have a deadline. You need it. Yeah, right,

Amber Cabral 10:30

for sure. Y’all were definitely really patient with me because my second book was bumpy. And also I just also want to kind of talk about too, I think having the ability to have some conversation along the way and ask questions, and having the support is not only surprising, but for new authors, especially authors of diverse backgrounds who don’t know what to expect, it’s super helpful. And one of the things I loved it Wiley has done is y’all have referred people to me to say, well, listen, here’s a few folks you can talk to. And so I always make time for those calls, because I know you know what it felt like to be a person that’s like, here’s this big, huge company that’s like, we want to do a book for you. And you’re like, really, should I do this? You know? And I appreciate having the opportunity to talk to another author and answer their questions. Honestly. Y’all have never been like, Listen, this is what you say or giving me any kind of script or anything. It’s just whatever they ask. You know, this is a person that you can talk to, that we’ve published with, and I love that, yeah, and I don’t think it’s a thing that we, you know, we don’t know that we need it. You know, until we’re in this moment where we’re like, I don’t even know anybody that’s written a book, or, you know, I don’t know who to call to ask if this language is right, or, you know what I should be thinking about. But I feel like that element, especially for someone who is, you know, of diverse background, doesn’t have the same networks as you know, to your point, you know, white men who have that, it was really important for me, so I really appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah,

Jeanenne Ray 11:56

I think one of the first things I do, and I didn’t do it as much before I do it a lot more now is I give my authors my cell phone number and say, like, you can text me anytime you have a question. I mean, there’s lots of things that that we could do, and I think one thing we could do more of is getting first time authors together to support each other. And that’s you’ve done a little a bit of that, but I would love to do that on a bigger scale. I think it’s really important to

Amber Cabral 12:19

dissipate. I am a fan. I think that’s a great idea. I didn’t know I needed it. And so, yeah, I think that’s fantastic. I would love to help. So what are some so let’s turn it to the other side. What are some potential, maybe misconceptions or ideas, or, you know, preconceived notions that maybe publishing companies may have about authors in populations that they haven’t worked with before. I

Jeanenne Ray 12:42

think that it varies from from editor to editor and from publisher to publisher. Yeah, I don’t really know what other people are worried about, but I think keeping your eyes and ears open is the job of a good editor to look for those amazing ideas and those thought leaders and to bring their their thought leadership forward to bring their ideas forward. That’s why we publish books.

Amber Cabral 13:03

Exactly one of the things I when I thought about this question, the thing that came to mind for me was, you know, when you are working with someone who is different than other folks you’ve worked with in the past, sometimes what can happen is that there are unique cultural elements, like there could be, you know, some practices that this person I can’t write during this season because of a religious belief, or, you know, I could be in a position where, you know, I have a particular family dynamic that I navigate. And so I what I liked about my experience with you is exactly what you shared when I needed to have someone to talk to, when something was going on in my life. I didn’t feel like I had to hide some element of myself to come and have that conversation, and so that was super valuable. But I don’t know that every writer has felt that way. I’ve actually talked to, unfortunately, a couple of people who haven’t had necessarily the best experience in their publishing journey. And I’ve made some recommendations, you know, some things that I think should be help, should be available to help authors. And I think it comes from the idea that every person’s going to write the same way, right? You know, that you can just, kind of, to your point, give this deadline, and someone’s just gonna go, boom, this is it, you know, and I’m gonna turn it in, and that’s it. And it just doesn’t work like that. You know, my first book came out really quick. The second one, I was like, What is going on? Life is wild. I’m doing all I can, you know, and so sometimes it can be bumpy in that way. And so I I thought about that when I wrote that question, just thinking about how personal matters, cultural matters, just the nuances of identity can pop up and, you know, kind of influence the experience an author can have. So I thought I would ask you, what you came across, okay, what are some changes that you think would be really great to happen in the world of publishing? Like, if you were to look out, I know you’ve had a great career, but like, if you were to, I don’t know, look out, five, 810, years. What are some changes that you would. Looking forward to in the publishing industry.

Jeanenne Ray 15:03

I think an important one is recruiting people from diverse backgrounds. First of all, because if you don’t have a diverse team or a diverse set of editors, you’re not going to have the most diverse set of authors, right? That’s, I think that’s really important. It’s hard because publishing is very kind of traditional, old fashioned industry. And if you, you know, it used to be that if you, you know, somebody’s uncle’s friend’s cousin or whatever worked in industry, you could get in as an intern. Now it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, now it’s different. So there’s a lot of opportunity, but filling those positions with the entry level positions with people from diverse backgrounds, I think, is a first good step. And then, you know, just recognizing that not everybody has the same experience, the same background, and not everyone’s going to come to the table with an understanding of how publishing works and the connections to make a book successful, but you can work with authors to kind of mine all the connections they do have and see you know how that can make the book successful in terms of sales, but also in terms of supporting the author’s business or whatever their goal is, whether it’s a book that’s supporting their business or a book that is, you know, getting their their thought leadership out so that they can, they can increase their speakers, like you were saying, those are the kinds of things that I think, you know, we could use, we could use more of,

Amber Cabral 16:37

yeah, I I think, when I consider some of the things that I would like to see in the industry, it’s kind of what you said, the community aspect, I would love to see more of that. I do think, and you’ve mentioned it a couple times, that like networks are a big deal, yeah, just me, you know, alone, I can’t even at this point, begin to count how many people I’ve like, funneled to you, or that the people I’ve sent you have sent you right? And so it’s like, Okay, let me introduce you, you know, and there’s this, like, web of folks that happens. And so networks really do matter, just not, not just for the author and, you know, making more books, but to your point, recruiting talent. And so being thoughtful about who is in the ranks, who’s in your talent pipeline, how you’re being deliberate about being attractive to that group of folks, being thoughtful and strategic with some of the things we know that are happening, like the mindsets of Gen Z, and like how that’s showing up and how they like to consume books. So I imagine even the way books are, you know, being read is changing, you know, as well. And so I I, when I think about equity of access. Reading is something that automatically comes to mind, because it’s a major source of information. It’s one of the ways that we can kind of capture and communicate our ideas and keep it in a static form. And so as we go more digital, even books being more digital, I think it’s increasingly more important that we’re thoughtful about the folks that we are having in the pipeline, because people are going to start to consume these mediums in more ways, in different ways, you know, and different folks are going to do it. So, yeah, I love that. All right. I have a surprise question. My bonus question, okay, okay, my last question is, because this show is called guilty privilege, and the reason I called it that is because ultimately, what happens a lot of times is folks who have privilege, or folks who have a sense of what their privileges are. They can feel a little guilty about it, ashamed, you know, not really, you know, proud about the thing. And really what privilege does is it gives us an opportunity to create access and opportunity for other people. And so the question I want to ask you is, what is one privilege that you have that you refuse to feel guilty about

Jeanenne Ray 18:42

it’s a good question, but I think it goes back to my first conversation with you, and it was after. I was after George Floyd and I signed up for your webinar on my own. Have nothing to do with work. I was just asking myself, What should I be doing? Like I need to do something. And in that session, when you were saying, What do you how to use your privilege, I suddenly had a light bulb go on and realize my privilege is my job. It’s what I do every day at work. Yeah, and and that I needed to be doing a better job publishing the study of first voices everything we’ve been we’ve been talking about, right? And I’ve made a concerted effort to do that. But I recognize that this position is a privilege, and I don’t feel guilty about that, but I do want to use it to the best of my ability to make, you know, to make things different. Yeah,

Amber Cabral 19:40

and you have Thank you. I’m grateful that you know you decided to sign up, because, honestly, that’s the only time I’ve done that. I’ve never run another public facing course, yeah, so there’s

Jeanenne Ray 19:50

a reason for it, yeah, literally, yeah. Small world, we’ve got a friend out Absolutely.

Amber Cabral 19:55

I’m so glad you came. So thanks for joining me on the podcast. Thank you

Jeanenne Ray 19:58

so much for having me, of course. Hours you.